SecondJon @SecondJon@social.cleverlibre.org

@peterdrake I was trying to apply the principle:

IF for decisions that affect many people, we should focus on diverse inputs to that decision.

and IF the decision of who is president is one that really affects many people.

THEN we should strive to emphasize perspectives that are underrepresented by a popular vote alone.

Without that, 1) the vote will be increasingly made only by the perspective of city dwellers and 2) candidates will have zero reason to put themselves under the influence of diverse opinions and ideas from a diverse though minority population.

Pragmatically, the left gets support from metropolis areas, so I understand it's desirable to draw the line of valued diversity at the city limits. Then majority not diversity is key.

Perhaps the desire for emphasizing diverse viewpoints was the reason why the US was founded as a republic, not a democracy, seeing the straight majority vote as dangerous in it's silencing of the minority backgrounds and points of view. I'm not a historian, just speculating.

@peterdrake
Thanks for the time you put into that... Is it fair to summarize the male-only voting issue as a value on diversity of outlook among those voting on the issue?

I think I agree with that - but disagree that gender and race are the most direct paths to diversity of outlook. For example, two politicians in the same party who were elected in the same year in the same election after attending the same schools and having the same voting history, but one of them is male and one is female, I don't think that's a lot of differences in background, life histories, and areas of expertise.

To aim for those things, I think we may need to look deeper - to different cultural backgrounds, ages, and differences more than skin deep, which is more difficult than getting an electorate that looks like Captain Planet kids.

I think looking for race and gender differences, among others, can result in the virtuous feeling of diversity but still allow excluding all those with different ideas and opinions.

This makes me think the electoral college is a wise idea - a straight popular vote could result in limiting elected officials to those whose backgrounds are appealing only to those with the shared background and experience in the most densely populated areas, and we'd get less and less of the differences of perspective that could provide the value we're discussing.

Martin Luther King Jr. Niece, Dr. Alveda King Urges Americans to Vote Pro-Life

Alveda King, the niece of slain civil rights activist Martin Luther King Jr., released a handful of election videos today that each contain her message to Ameri

https://www.lifenews.com/2018/11/05/martin-luther-king-jr-niece-alveda-king-urges-americans-to-vote-pro-life/

@peterdrake I think this is related and potentially significant to the discussion - can I get your opinion about something I'm genuinely not sure on the left view on:

How do these 2 ideas reconcile (or am I getting one or both wrong)?

1. Gender is so solid, so significant, so immovable, that we shouldn't allow decisions that are only made by men, women must be involved in every decision, because the differences between men and women are objective, undeniable and important.

2. Gender is purely subjective, there's no objective male or female, gender is nothing more than a social construct - the only difference between a man and a woman is a person's ideas about themselves.

I'm not being sarcastic or trying to straw man, hope this doesn't come across poorly.

Human-like dummy with Marsha Blackburn's name found hanging from a tree

Residents of a Tennessee town are furious after a dummy with Rep. Marsha Blackburn’s name was found hanging from a tree. The controversial figure wearing a dunce cap and a sign with an “X” over the name “Marsha” was found hanging from a tree in Shelbyville, WZTV-FOX 17 reported. “It was very disturbing to see a human-like object …

https://www.bizpacreview.com/2018/11/05/human-like-dummy-with-marsha-blackburns-name-found-hanging-from-a-tree-690810

#uspol

@peterdrake

I hear you on those not subject to a policy or ruling shouldn't be the ones to vote on it, like only men voting on women's health issues. But is the problem that it's all men voting, or that you don't like what THOSE men decided?

Roe vs. Wade was decided by all white men. Using the metric that issues that affect women should not be decided by men, we should throw that out.

I hope my opinion of the ruling (and other issues) is not based on the race or gender of those who made the ruling, but on principles.

Funny that headlines are declaring tomorrow judgment day for Trump. Presidents (nearly?) always lose legislative seats in the midterm. If Trump loses seats, that's normal, not Judgment Day on Trump. If he loses significantly more or less than the historical pattern, I suspect we'll be seeing the result of reaction to how the media has handled this president differently despite record setting good economic news and no new international conflicts, etc.

Overall though, wouldn't the best measure be to compare tomorrow's results with Obama's historic loss with his first midterm?

#uspol

Obama Volunteer Arrested For Vandalizing NYC Synagogue With Anti-Semitic Statements, Police Say

The New York City Police Department arrested a Democratic activist on Friday night for allegedly vandalizing a synagogue in New York City with vile anti-Semitic messages.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/37946/obama-volunteer-arrested-vandalizing-nyc-synagogue-ryan-saavedra

@peterdrake
I think diversity language is definitely at home on the left.

It was also the Democrat governor who declared conservatives aren't welcome in New York, Democrat candidate Clinton who labeled disagreers as deplorables, leftist businesses that fired the creator of Javascript (his name escapes me) and James Demore for holding a diverse opinion. The left condemn anyone who shares views with first term Obama on things like marriage and immigration.

Because of these and other examples of exclusivity, not inclusivity from the democrats, I don't see the democrats as the party of inclusion.

I think members of both parties believe they're the bastion of diversity (for a right example, look at the diverse republican primary candidates including multiple minorities with different policy ideas in the last presidential election VS the old white candidates of the democrats), they simply define diversity differently.

BTW, Thanks for the courteous exchange.

@peterdrake
I think a lot of that is fair. I don't like to try to read motivations onto people, but I suspect you're right that Republican politicians would tend away from birthright citizenship and be in favor of stronger border policies if they believe the result will be more votes for their party, and that democrats would be of the opposite opinions because they'd see it as a boon for their political power.

I'm not owned by (or even anymore affiliated with) one party or the other, I think this one is a fair critique of both.

For example, would democrats be pushing for voting rights for felons of they believed the result would prevent them from being in power? I think they'd have to argue that for the greater good they'd have to retain power and abandon the ideas.

We see a lot of shifts in principle that shouldn't happen,and the opposite party points it out when it happens on both sides. An example chosen just due to availability heuristic : Obama agreed with Trump on illegal immigration when it was politically expedient to get elected, then reversed principles when it was expedient for political purposes later. Most of them do this.

We aren't dealing with the side of the angels VS the side of hate. Perhaps we're mostly dealing with power hungry politicians from two major parties whose core principle seems to be their own power and prestige, and other principles fail in line to support those.

@naturaldisplay
Ah, the fabled whataboutism. So you've heard of something historical. That's cool. That may be meaningful. What's the impact on how we see this hate from the left?

@dewb
I feel like stronger republican turnout in early voting is a headline every election year, used by Republicans to celebrate a temporary lead and by democrats to spur their own voter turn out.

Is this trend different or stronger than previous election cycles?

Presidential Proclamation on National Adoption Month, 2018 | The White House

During National Adoption Month, we recognize the immeasurable love and support that adoptive parents and families provide to hundreds of thousands of children each year.  We celebrate the life-changing act of adoption, bring attention to the millions of Americans who are eager to adopt, and express our gratitude to the families who have welcomed children into …

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/presidential-proclamation-national-adoption-month-2018/

Someone HANGED an effigy of a Republican from a tree – with ‘STOP the HATE’ sign!

The winner of the political demonstration most lacking in self-awareness is this effigy of a Republican hung from a tree in Tennessee with the sign, “stop the hate.”

https://therightscoop.com/someone-hanged-an-effigy-of-a-republican-from-a-tree-with-stop-the-hate-sign/