Shamar @Shamar@social.cleverlibre.org

Ragazzi voi conoscete qualcuno che possa essere interessato?

@paolo @gabriele@social.lucci.xyz @mauro @maupao @Ca_Gi @karjudev@mastodon.uno

Ciao #Fediverse!

Chi ha voglia di fare quattro chiacchiere su #Informatica, #Politica, #Educazione e #Democrazia?

Sabato a #Milano partecipo ad un tavolo di lavoro del Partito Pirata il cui scopo e definire un progetto politico innovativo per il Partito Pirata del 2020 basato sull'etica #hacker.

Un progetto che parte dall'educazione informatica per diffondere la #Curiosità che ci caratterizza ed applicarla, insieme alle nostre competenze, alla ricerca di soluzioni razionali e concretamente realizzabili per i diversi problemi della nostra società.

Un progetto convintamente #Democratico e #Costituzionale che si fonda sui Principi Fondamentali della nostra #Costituzione.

Un progetto #Politico ambizioso.

Chi ha voglia di partecipare alla sua stesura?

@gunt @ekaitz_zarraga

was archived here https://web.archive.org/web/20190705135842/https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/issues/3617

(thankfully, there also my text)

@gunt @ekaitz_zarraga

Unfortunately no.
Actually I'd like to at least have access to my own submission, because it was good material for a blog post...

@ekaitz_zarraga

Moreover this time hate has been EVIDENTLY misdirected: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/issues/3617#note_547832

@awilfox @sroracle @sir @AdelieLinux

All this said I wonder what we disagree upon... 😆

About the difference between #FreeSoftware and #OpenSource?

I think I should write something about this as with time my understanding of the issue deepened.

But here you can find the incident that opened my eyes on the matter: https://medium.com/@giacomo_59737/what-i-wish-i-knew-before-contributing-to-open-source-dd63acd20696

@awilfox @sroracle @sir @AdelieLinux

I think that #GNU #GCC has (and had) it's issues (just like any other software, or well... human artefact), but it's for sure a valuable piece of software.

It's true that the large number of optimizations available, the large number of operating systems and architectures supported, the various language frontends make it a very complex piece of software.

Also it's a venerable program collection, with more than 30 years of active development and research on its shoulders, with all it implies.

Finally, I think everybody remember the (dumb and short-sighted) #Stallman opposition to exposing its AST in 2015 (see https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-01/msg00171.html )

Yet I agree that GCC is still probably the best compilers COLLECTION we have (I'd argue that Ken Thompson compiler suite for Plan 9 was simpler and more portable, but it's not a compilers' suite and it's not even a standard C compiler).

Beware @sroracle, you are going to be blocked by @sir for this
kind of "nonsense". 😉

Yesterday I spent 30 minutes trying to help him understand that his hate for #GCC is misdirected (and undeserved) see https://qoto.org/web/statuses/102380322656831790 and now I'm blocked.

But you know, hating a "third-order" dependency like #GNU that made your whole #business possible but you have no real impact upon is a great #marketing tool.

#OSS people love to throw shit at GNU and #FSF as they are unlikely to fight back.
But often if you dwell deeper, they don't know what they are talking about.

That's the main difference between #FreeSoftware #hackers and #OpenSource developers.

@xj9

Well... this is not what Drew was saying.

Yes, that's something I could agree.... in the long run.

But honestly I'm really not sure that if all GNU projects would disappear right now, the world would keep going as if nothing happened.

No GTK? No Gimp? No Gnome?
I'm not saying the Free Software world wouldn't reboot, but it would be a hard reset.

@xj9

well... yeah... but how this is relevant when we are talking about development tools, history and C standards? 🤣

@sir

Uhm... yeah... I did forget how picky you are with people who don't worship you.

As I said, I don't like GNU tools just like you, but cursing them won't hide the fact that basically all existing free software and all existing open source projects simply would NOT EXIST without them.

This is not a reason to worship GNU. But it's enough to not fire on the red cross.

Anyway... good night!

@xj9 @petit

@sir

Are you sure?

Because the #C99 #standard say something different.

On section 3.4.3 the standard defines "undefined behaiour" as "behavior upon use of a nonportable or erroneous program construct or of erroneous data,for which this International Standard imposes no requirements"

The standard also clarify: "Possible undefined behavior ranges from ignoring the situation completely with unpredictable results, to behaving during translation or program execution in a documented manner characteristic of the environment (with or without the issuance of a diagnostic message), to terminating a translation or execution (with the issuance of a diagnostic message)."

In section 4, about Conformance, the #C standard says: "A program that is correct in all other aspects, operating on correct data, containing unspecified behavior shall be a correct program and act in accordance with 5.1.2.3"

And then add "A strictly conforming program shall use only those features of the language and library specified in this International Standard.2)It shall not produce output dependent on any unspecified, undefined, or implementation-defined behavior and shall not exceed any minimum implementation limit."

Note the wording used: in a STRICTLY conforming program the output must not depends on undefined behaviour, but it doesn't exclude undefined behaviours in a CORRECT program!

That's because C was designed as a low level language: undefined behaviour were basically hook for compiler designers.

So ultimately GCC is just handling undefined behaviour BY THE STANDARD.

And this way of handling undefined behaviour is not a C invention.

Algol 68 standard said:
"1.1.4.3. Undefined
a) If something is left “undefined” or is said to be “undefined”, then this means that it is not defined by this Report alone and that, for its definition, information from outside this Report has to be taken into account. {A distinction must be drawn between the yielding of an undefined value (whereupon elaboration continues with possibly unpredictable results) and the complete undefinedness of the further elaboration. The action to be taken in this latter case is at the discretion of the implementer, and may be some form of continuation (but not necessarily the same as any other implementer’s continuation), or some form of interruption (2.1.4.3.h) brought about by some run-time check.}
b) If some condition is “required” to be satisfied during some elaboration then, if it is not so satisfied, the further elaboration is undefined."

Don't blame GNU Compiler Collection!

It's just that we are all tightly coupled!

And we are all brothers, all subject to the original sin. ;-)

@petit @xj9

@sir

well actually, if your mother conceived you inside the Volkwagon Beedle, yes: you wouldn't be here without it.

The fun fact of life is that, like it or not, we are ALL tightly coupled.

@xj9 @petit

@sir

Yes, if that IS the case, you should be thankful to #Microsoft, be it a force for good or pure evil.

Also note that your third order exposure to GNU tools is what let your whole system EXIST.

I mean, yes, it's third order, but well... a pretty strong relationship, don't you think?

Not counting that, if sr.ht run on Intel hardware... you know Intel ME => Minix => GNU...

Now, don't get me wrong: I don't like GNU lack of design just like you do (probably more 🤣) and you should not like it if you don't.

But it deserves our gratitude 😉

@xj9 @petit

@sir

read the question more carefully 😉

@petit

@sir

Out of curiosity, how many software and libraries running on sr.ht have been developed on #GNU systems and well... basically exist thanks to GNU tools?

@petit