🎓 Dr. Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@social.cleverlibre.org

@noelle Just wanted to say hi, hope your doing ok!

@wishgranter14

No, pretty tangible stuff for people who can see the nose in front of their face.

@2ck @johnabs @swiley

@wishgranter14

Small companies can benefit just as much as large. Not to mention the cultural enrichment and the enrichment of having them as friends. My life has been enriched by my immigrant friends (as someone who is an immigrant in the Netherlands (originally from the US) I also benefit.

@2ck @johnabs @swiley

@johnabs

> "our founding principles were this, thus they should stay that way currently"

I dont tend to see things quite so black and white.. Our founding principles and the way we did things back then in many ways are important. They showed compassion as well as practicality in much of it and there is a lot to be admired and to remember them as a founding purpose, something that should still drive us today. But that doesnt mean we have to pretend like we are still in the 1700s either. There is nuance and that nuance is important.

The point is we should be very pro-immigration, and if your anti-immigration as many people are that is foolish, but that doesnt mean open borders either. I would personally give everyone a chance, but be strict on if they can stay, equal opportunity to both fail and succeed.

@2ck @swiley

@johnabs

> I understand that having 100% open borders under the founding of the "new world", particularly the USA made sense at the time. There was a 3 month minimum journey where you risked scurvy and other forms of malnutrition just to come to "the land of opportunity". The key being "opportunity", in that there was an emphasis on libertarian freedom that people could be self-determined and carve out a niche for themselves so long as they worked hard enough.

I am not suggesting or promoting open borders. but the point is to remind us of our roots as a country committed to helping immigrants and welcoming them as best we can.

I have always said you cant have open-borders and generous welfare, the two don't work. If anything the reason early America could get away with it was simply a lack of welfare. Everyone is welcome to come here, but no one is going to help you unless they want to.

@2ck @swiley

@2ck

While the wording on the statue of liberty is of course more about poetics than being a quotation of the literal law it isnt really disconnected as much as you might think.

The USA had 100% open borders allowing **anyone** to immigrate to the USA without any restrictions and with complete access to naturalizations for the first 100 years of its existence. It wasn't until 1875, a century later, that the first law was put in place that limited immigration in any sense, and also the first law that limited it based on country of origin.

@swiley

@swiley You will always find groups of people who hate this or that. But the fact is the founding of America was pro-immigration and at the time it was so much the overwhelming majority that it had the support of the people to codify that as a fundamental principle. Over time that eroded away, but our roots are quite clear, at the beginning we were, as a nation, overwhelmingly pro-immigration.

Remember the anti-irish stuff you mention came much later in the 19th century, well after our founding.

@Wetrix

Its an easy fact to miss, probably just never covered it in any of that. Sleep well.

@frank87 @mur2501

@Wetrix

History is crazy :)

@frank87 @mur2501

@Wetrix

Europe was first defined by the Homeric Hymn an anctient greek text from 700 BC or so. It defined one of the shores as the border of europe, Aegean sea shoreline somewhere.

The first real determination of asia vs europe and a more complete description of the borders in reference to "Europe" as a term comes a little later from Hecataeus and Anaximander about 100 years later in 600 BC. They defined the border between Asia and europe, one of the rivers I dont remember the name of right now.

The border with africa was kinda already defined in 700BC though no real mention of Africa itself. first mention of Africa specifically would be the Book of jubilees written around 100 BC, it is the first mention of Africa as well as redefining the western and eastern borders slightly.

@frank87 @mur2501

Just a reminder to all the anti-immigrant people out there.. this is what the USA once stood for:

Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

@bonzoesc I got to swim with them a few times, they really love to cuddle, particularly the babies. Gentlest wild animal I ever met its amazing.

@akeno

Do you even think people are reading what you say.. people just tune out people like you. I havent read more than about 3 words on any of your past few messages, its a waste of my time to care, so you can stop talking anytime you want.

@q @Atlas @nubigo

@BigSkyRider

No arguments on the fact that people are lied to and there isnt informed conscent on this around the dangers I mentioned, the legitimate ones. But it looks nothing like the nonsense this thread is going on about

@nubigo @Atlas @q @akeno

@BigSkyRider

I strongly oppose anyone being given the COVID vaccine against their will, all your incoherent ramblings aside we agree there no worries.

@nubigo @Atlas @q @akeno

@akeno

Crying? you really do live in your own world. you look like a blubbering fool, trust me you wont and cant evoke any emotional response out of me other than pity

@q @Atlas @nubigo

@nubigo

The funny thing is, thats not an exageration, thats not mocking, that is literally just taking what they said and reducing it to its simplest form.. they are literally using that logic right now, lol

@Atlas @q @akeno

@akeno

How am I a liar, I never said I was against vaccines or masks, oh right i forgot for a second, your just stupid, you struggle with understanding what I said. What I did say is I was critical of and even against the COVID vaccine, which is largely due to it being released early and thus not being properly safety tested like most other vaccines.

I am in complete support of most vaccines however, they work and your a moron to think otherwise most of the time.

@q @Atlas @nubigo

@pants

There is a big chasm between "capitalists support it if..." and "The rules of capitalism permit it".. The only thing I have debated about is what each government allows in its purest form, not what its supporters like.

The fact is open source in its current form (that is the creator gets to pick one of countless licenses each with different rules anywhere from proprietary to public domain and everything in between).. well that cant even exist in a pure communism as it implies the original creator had ownership to give away in the first place.

Same with the syndicalists, you cant have open source in the form we know it if we dont start with ownership. So of all the things listed capitalism is literally the only one where open-source can exist at all.

@Faket @emilis @SteveTheDragon

@Faket

Well it certainly changes who the target is as it suits our needs. But my point is that war is in the nature of countries and people.. we have always had wars and likely always will, from when we were small isolated tribes, to giant nations. That war is one among many reasons you will usually see the bigger government wins.

@emilis @SteveTheDragon