🎓 Dr. Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@social.cleverlibre.org

@mathlover

We 100% agree on that, I make all my jokes at your expense as well ;)

@pants @bonifartius @swiley

@lucifargundam

Well sounds like you got lucky and picked the best instance as your first instance then :)

@swiley

@pants

Fair, we are about half a dozen tangents away from the original target at this point :)

@bonifartius @mathlover @swiley

@mathlover

Agreed, and to be clear when I say we shouldnt censor people (including nazis).. what I mean is, if one of our users wants to go read what some piece of shit nazi is posting for some reason (could be research for a paper, could be a personal motive to understand how a person can turn into someone like that, whatever), they have that right.. it doesnt mean I have to give that user the resources of my server and a seat at the table to use my server as a soapbox either.. I am talking about censorship in terms of a good persons right to be able to consume any information they wish, not that they have a right to use my private resources to broadcast shitty unethical information.

@pants @swiley @bonifartius

@pants

Censorship doesnt stop exposure, it just switches the channel of exposure to ones where the behavior is normalized, which is exactly what, as you just pointed out, is needed.

consider the fediverse where the nazi community is largely isolated by blocking. Censorship creates the initial interest, users then simply create a single account somewhere in the Nazi community, and now 100% of the content they see, flooded every day, is nazi hate.. they have complete exposure and their entire community appears to normalize the behavior. Couple this with the fact that the community tends to be welcoming to newcomers (assuming they arent a group they would be racist against) and you have a recipe for disaster.

Consider the inverse of that where they arent blocked. When they arent blocked the Nazi community would represent an extremely small community and a voice that would rarely be seen out of the sea of more positive voices, no censorship to create the initial appeal or interest, exposure would be minimal as there is no walled off comunity to act as an echo chamber (even if you join a nazi server your still federated with the vast majority of anti-nazi servers).. and no normalization in their own server or outside (because again the federation means non-nazis are interjecting and call them out constantly)...

So your own point actually directly supports my own, not only does censorship create more nazis but it in fact creates the two elements needed for them to thrive, exposure (created by a walled off community where you can hear only nazis) and normalization (the echo chamber such a community will have).

@swiley @bonifartius @mathlover

@pants

The real consequence is it makes people think the idea, and the nazis are themselves oppressed and that maybe there is something to it if people are going to so much trouble to oppress it. Afterall, if it were just some nonsense idea with no truth to it then there would be no fear of the information being available..

We always see the same pattern when we analyze censorship.. censoring the thing usually increases support and interest in the thing.

@mathlover @swiley @bonifartius

@pants

Actually as a general rule (I did my undergrad thesis on this) censoring something generally has the effect of increasing intersest,/consumption/adoption of an idea. It doesnt not give you less Nazis, it would give you more.

People have a tendency to want to expiernce what they are told they are not allowed to, even if it taught said thing is harmful to them. For example stricter heroin laws results in increase in a communities heroin abuse, censoring certain books results in more people looking for and collecting copies of those books (and an interest in spreading illegal copies).. one could conclude the same is true for concepts like Nazism, by censoring it you effectively increase the number of nazis over time.

@swiley @bonifartius @mathlover

@pants

Doublespeak makes no assumptions or assertions as to powerdynamic or on a global scale what race has the power or not, none of that is really being applied here.

But even if we do let power structures enter into the equation the doublespeak still seems to ring true.

What we often find, or at least what I have seen as myself being a member of a minority is that the same oppression occurs internal as does external when censorship becomes the agent for perceived good.

First you get communities of minorities who censor those they feel have unwanted opinions, and that censorship itself is usually so general as to the point of absurdity more often than not. But worse yet that same censorship turns inwards and becomes the same instrument for oppression applies to their own minorities. You quickly find minority members of the community who are critical of the censorship or the ethical choices of their own community come under oppression of that same censorship.

The aspect of doublespeech is just as harmful to the minorities that is the intention to protect as it does towards the harmful ideas it censors in the first place.

@bonifartius @mathlover @swiley

@pants

The reason it becomes doublethink is because, inevitably, the people who are in charge of identifying racists, misogynistic and homophobic/heterophobic people really just depends on the opinion of the hour.

In most groups these scary words are abused to the point they go well beyond literal nazis or racists and very quickly begin to include "anyone who disagrees with me about race", sometimes and often even evolves so far to become racist itself.. So while in an ideal world it may be easy to reason that doublethink isnt an inherent property, in virtually all real world scenarios we find it very much is.

@bonifartius @mathlover @swiley

@bonifartius

Well, they are too dumb.. but its important to note this is dumb in the sense that its learned behaviors not inate ability.. That is, other humans go "Oh that dumb thing you just said regarding your political opinion, thats GREAT, glad to see your fighting for whats right".. rather than "I am glad you care about the right thing, but your ideas wont get you there they will make the problem worse, you ARE the problem but you can change that!"

As long as we refuse to accept the people are "too-dumb" and make a conscious effort to change that and maket he people thoughtful and well educated in what works giving them the intelligence and the compassion, then the problem will persist. yea saying the people are "too-dumb" may sound anti-humanist but only if you exclude the fact thatwe can change it.

The worst part is that for long as we refuse to acknowledge the blame lies on us and our stupidity we will never break the cycle. So by rejecting it out of hand you also perpetuate it.

It also doesnt have to lead to anti-hate speech, again that is only the consequence if we feel or conclude that people cant be educated and improved and must be forced.

@mathlover @swiley

@bonifartius

The safe haven part isnt an issue, I get that. Which is why we have account-initiated instance blocks. Each user is still free to create their own safe bubble as they see fit and I would never hold that against a user.

The issue is more so the inverse, where someone holds it against some user or server for **not** blocking someone.

@mathlover @swiley

@mathlover

Its just armchair whiteknighting.. its a way of telling themselves they are doing something to stop the evil when really they are just perpetuating it.

@swiley

@mathlover

That or that if their audience is ok with seeing it that they must agree with it. Or a bit of both

@swiley

@mathlover

When users are more than capable of blocking instances on their own, and its a trivial matter to just go down a list when you first open an account and create your own personal block list, then I really fail to see the point besides perhap virtue signaling.

@swiley

@mathlover

It seems to be a pretty big portion, and sadly there are very few instances that have local moderation rules and a polite environment but themselves are not block happy. Its so rare in fact that its been the main attractive feature QOTO presents to new users in my expiernce.

@swiley

@hast0011@mstdn.social I was speaking half jokingly.. complete and unrestricted access to all nuclear material would be a pretty dangerous proposal. Even in the hands of well meaning people that shit is dangerous just through contact contamination.