🎓 Dr. Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@social.cleverlibre.org

@koyu@koyu.space

Why must everyone turn good things into toxic things... its depressing.

@trinsec

@goatsarah

Well the "sales pitch" is posted as a draft. Thats intentional, the point is so you and people like you can jump in and help reword it to get it to something you do like... So why not go in and make edits and suggestions to something you find more appealinng. I have no doubt it will go through.

@doot

@goatsarah

Absolutely, I agree, it should not be your job to protect yourselves, it should be the job of those in the community to make the community a place that is moral and just.

No one is saying you cant disengage, or that you shouldnt have the right.. am also not saying that it is right that this action leads to more harm, it shouldnt... but the sad fact is, it does. When you accuse the good people risking everything of being Nazis and drive them off by shunning, you create a space where people dont try to make a safe space for you, its wrong, they should do it anyway, but they wont. Especially when the abuse (being called a nazi or treated like one) is coming from the people you try to help and when you do that and get hated by both sides now.

I can relate to my own expiernces, and please try to also consider where im coming from... I took a stance for 5 years now that as we can all see is a large component in having the community treat me exact the way we are discussing... Everyone ignores the fact that I did it because I saw a life, and LGBTQ life, saved by this choice.. I stuck with it when i saw a second life saved later. I am so passionate about my choice after seeing these lives saved that no matter how much the mob yells at me I wont back down.. because being unpopular to save LGBTQ lives is a good trade off for me.}

Here is the catch though, now I am the target of very similar abuse that the LGBTQ phase... all the legitimate nazis are out there attacking me and shunning me for daring to care about the LGBTQ community and stand up for them. At the same time the very LGBTQ community I have commit to help is imaging dog whistles that dont exist and lumping me in with the Nazis....

So consider the position I'm in.. I have a choice... I choose to be popular with the LGBTQ community at the cost of seeing the death of people I could have saved... I choose to be a nazi and wind up popular with that group.. or I choose the moral high ground and do what I know and have seen to be right but accept everyone on both sides hating me for imagined nonsense. Luckily I care about doing what is right, and I always will... A lesser person wouldnt, a lesser person would choose to let the LGBTQ community burn just so they could have a friend and not be under constant assault... Is their choice right? No... but it is the choice most people will make.

@doot @probgoblin

@andrewt

This seems like a huge leap in reasoning... it is not an exceptional clause, it is a qualifying clause.. that is, a clause which **explains** a thing, rather than providing an **exception** to a thing. This clause **explains** that outside of derogatory speech unpopular opinions that are not derogatory wont get you in trouble. I do agree this clause shouldnt be neccesary but sadly a large portion of admins are fairly abusive with how they block and so, it is.

@doot

@andrewt

I realize I didnt fully answer your question in my last response...

So I assume by "the trans debate" you mean people debating if trans people are "valid"? So your suggesting that isnt derogatory speech but is a simple difference of opinion not falling under derogatory speech? I dunno, that is shocking, personally I think it is quite clear that would fall under the first clause as hate-speech/derogatory-speech... not that would not get an exception..

So what is not derogatory speech but is unpopular? How about debate over if QOTO is a good actor or not? The last week we got about I dunno 80 new users who were banned from their home instances simply for saying somerthing like "I dont see any prejudice coming from QOTO".. bam, their banned.. for... an... unpopular opinion.

Now i want to be clear there is a reason we have that clause in QOTO and not int he UFoI, theUFoI governs other instances. Therefore if some instance wants to make a rule making some sort of unpopular non-derogatory speech against the rules, they can. So that clause simply makes no sense... At qoto however as long as you are respectful, kind, and not derogatory towards marginalized people simply saying 'Windows phones are great" (an unpopular opinion) wont get you banned.

@doot

@LouisIngenthron LOL thanks! I had no idea.

@andrewt

I have reworded our ToS maybe 30 times to keep appeasing objections like this and people just find new ways to twist it into something bad.. ill change it again I dont mind, but its getting absurd.. You ever think maybe you came in with a preconseption and went looking for something that would confirm it rather than the other way around?

Look what is meant is simple... derogatory speech isnt allowed, as long as its not derogatory speech then unpopular opinions are allowed. I will update QOTO so it copies the UFoI wording so there is no confusion, but we make this clear in several other places in our ToS..

As for the whole "what about this? discussion", Its an open-floor discussion, lots of people might have some bad ideas, thats why its a discussion.. but no exceptions have even been put up to vote, so lets try to worry about it if it happens...

I will make this clear, if hate speech or derogatory speech is allowed then QOTO would leave the UFoI. The irony, of course, is that leaving the UFoI would probably make people happy and they will just ignore the why and still call us nazis.

Still waiting for a single person to find even a single objectionable thing on the QOTO timeline, even remotely so.. but nah, that would just burst all the fun everyone is having calling people nazis I guess who are otherwise good people.

@doot

@andrewt

No we removed it sometime before any instances left.

Wrt qoto are yiu suggestion an instance must suspend anyone with an unpopular opinion? This seems like such a weird thing to get hung up on when we clearly and explicitly ban for derogatory towards marginalized people.

@rbairwell @doot

@tulpa oh cool. I bought the long abd short form domains with multiple tld ;) i will let you have them if this fails.

@FailForward

Thank you for this.

For the record I pay $1,200 a monthy out of pocket and typically receive no donations (the month of twitter influx however i did get $300, it was the only time though). I am happy to do it though.

@Darkayne @rootadmin @realcaseyrollins

@trinsec

::gestures vaguely at everything::

@koyu@koyu.space