🎓 Dr. Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@social.cleverlibre.org

@BlueDot @bloodaxe @feditips

We block racists.. we leave federation controls as to what instances they can see up to our users and provide block list for them.

@koyu@koyu.space to be fair mastodon the organization which writes the code is a gmbh, but mastodon itself as a piece of software hasnt cha ged really.

And for the record Im not trying to give you a hard time. I do think your trying to work towards something good. I just think it fell short and am trying to help fix those underlying issues. Which is what ive been trying to address for a while now.
I keep trying to push the conversation towards how to do reveipts in a way that would fix these problems, but you seem to keep glossing over the details of a receipts server which I have offered as a possible solution

And yes people might find your receipts invalid... isnt that the point? You want them be able to see your receipts are invalid and then tbey can add their own receipts

We provide block lists for users, and yes we have open federation but our users are not allowed to reboost or support racist content. As we have explained many times we openly federate at the request of and for the safety of our lbgtq community.

Not providing receipts is the issue yes, and no you arent asked to defend those receipts... the receipts you posted is fine, youd just need to include all the receipts and let the end user decide.

The receipts server i wrote does just thst... ANYONE CAN POST RECEIPTS, if a receiot is incomplete or left out then people can add to it. It ensures all the details are exposed.

Do you really not see a problem witb a server mai tsining a ban list, and receipts are objectively manipulated and important conte t left out in an attempt to sell effectively a lie (we explicitly state in our tos child porn gets a block).

No one is saying you needto defend tbe receipts, you just need to ensure the receipts content is inclusive of all the information and then at least others can decide.

Sorry but witbout receipts to evaluate it makes for not just a very bad blocklist but one that is harmful to the community.

@oliphant so in terms of receipts you have two categories here...

One is not receipts at all, like the attached screenshot, it is literally someone making accusations and a screenshot of that. That is not a receipt.

The joepie "receipt" is closer to being a receipt, its a screenshot of something i said at least. But it was also exposed as being a lie as it intentionally left out content to manipulate my response, which i replied to that link with thr full receipt. Lets break down that receipt shall we:

I woukd ask if i woukd defederate with child porn. I said no one had ever reported child porn so it wasnt an issue that had came up before... i immediately brought it up to the moderators at qoto and within 30 minutes got a preemptive rulling ton child porn and within moments of being asked the question we made a rulling and updated our ToS to address child porn and prohibit it. So within minutes in that same conversation i updated them as to our policy... that was of course left out of the screenshots andni have provided them.

Now ask yourself why did a server provide receipts that intentionally left out such an important response in the thread, a response that completely changes the receipt.

Do you really think receipts so blatantly manipulated and dishonest without showing important details and rejecting them when presented has any place on a publictly curated and adopted list? Does that really even count as a receipt when its so blatantly manipulated out of context?

@oliphant

Would you want to work together in expanding tbis system and try to address some of the concerns. I already have tools ive been developing on my own to address some of these problems and i think youve got a good head on you to do it

@oliphant we are mostly in agreement about needing a good block list for most new servers..

What gets me is the very low quality choices on the council, nonrequirement for receipts or any way for users to effectively research blocks, and the fact that notorious instances like rage.love known to lie and manipulate to encoirage their block list on others, makes for a bad aggregate list.

Getting 50 servers on the council could potentially address the server, but if a list of 50 servers has the same poor quality members as the 10 you have now then you will have the same problem.

I think if you want to solve the problem then the solution is not to simply have more servers on the council but rather have criteria for what servers can be on the council. Id rather have 3 server council that has well maintained receipts and transparency around their receipt process than 100 servers all hand picked to look like rage.love with few receipts and a bad reputation for abusing their block list.

The best solution is to build a receipts database and ensure any participating server must have receipts on a block throuvh the receipts server in order for the bloxk to be calculated at all. At least then users of thr blocklist will have the tools to do their own due dilligance

@oliphant fair concerns and yes if those instances make the sort of posts you claim yea id ubderstand why they are listed.

That said i woukd not be suorised if i went through the list in earnest id find many false positives when you have instances like rage.love that have been caught lying and manipulating the receipts around their blocks.

You picked some of the worst most abusive blocklists known on the fedi to be on your "council".. bad data i and bad out. Qoto is a prime example of that, a highly moderated pro-lgbtq instance with absolutely no record or receipts of wrong doing.. i have no doubt others made it to that list.