🎓 Dr. Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@social.cleverlibre.org

@LouisIngenthron

Going back to the point of sovereignty as its original definition as you shared "absolute control and autonomy"... well in the USA sovereignty is split. The federal government doesnt have it because they can not do certain things, and thus dont have absolute power (points 1 - 4 are powers the federal government doesnt have over states and states are sovereign in those regards).

That is why when we talk about sovereignty without any adjectives before it we say that sovereignty int he USA is shared between the federal and state governments, each taking a piece of the pie and only collectively can their powers be seen as sovereign as a whole.

@thegonzoism

@LouisIngenthron @thegonzoism

Well we got a bit off track.. lets back up a second since yo uwont accept this particular example... We are talking about state sovreignty... well I linked a paper before and you should read it (re linked below)... it answers your question in detail, why are the states considered sovreign.

At the end it goes into some detail as to what properties give it sovreignty and what the properties are of soverignty more generally (at least according to some political scholars):

Those properties are:

1) the rule of preservation - In other words the federal government can not dissolve a state or split it, only a state can do this on its own.

2) The rule of separateness - In other words the federal government can not dictate to the states how they form their own internal governance

3) The rule of participation - The federal government can not exclude a state or restrict it from participation in the federal governement. Though it can decide who will become a state, once a state is a state those powers can be revoked.

4) The rule of interpretive independence - Thsi sets forth the jurisdiction issues we already discussed but you refused to accept.. but generally that the state has jurisdiction to interpret the laws within its own state and its court has jurisdiction over this.

https://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1295&context=facpubs

@LouisIngenthron @thegonzoism

It doesnt. Your link states cases of federal jurisdiction where the crimes have effects outside of the state, as we covered. The dojs memo even states this when talking about large drug operations refering to their potential to bleed into other states.

@LouisIngenthron @thegonzoism

The page was pretty clear about the feds only being involved when it crosses state lines.

Even your own links line up with the fact that it must effect other states to be a problem... hell even the DOJ memo itself says it only cares about large operations where the drugs are expected to cross state lines, that was their own wording.

Your stuck in confirmation bias at this point. I just wish i coukd find a source talking about it directly.

@LouisIngenthron @thegonzoism

If you want to argue with lawyers i dunno what to tell you... the feds cant enter a state and act as their police force for matters that are not federal jurisdiction. Not unless the state allows it.

There are a few explicit exceptions (like bankrupcy cases) where federal courts have exclusive jurisdiction, but as many legal pages state this is limited to situations where the senate has made excplicit exceptions. The page explains sone of this.

@LouisIngenthron @thegonzoism

So here is one law source that mentions it breifly:

Federal laws generally focus on movement across state borders, such as drug trafficking.

For example, if you cross state lines with a large quantity of a controlled substance, you may be charged with the federal offense of drug trafficking. You may also be charged with a federal drug offense if you are caught selling drugs on government property.

Or, you may face federal drug selling charges if you sell and transport drugs using the United States Post Office or a private mail carrier.

State laws focus on possession and manufacturing.

https://nhassanlaw.com/criminal-defense/when-is-selling-drugs-a-federal-offense-vs-a-state-crime/

@LouisIngenthron @thegonzoism

Here is a page that explains when the federal courts have jurisdiction:

https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/types-cases

@LouisIngenthron

Correct there are other ways, all of which in some way deal with inter-state politics...

For example large operations for drugs gives probable cause that at least some of those drugs make it into other states.

Drug dcimes committed on federal property is considered federal jurisdiction

So yea there are quite a few ways, all of them boil down to the crime your committing extends outside of your state in one way or another.

@thegonzoism

@LouisIngenthron

I wish I remembered the case... there was one case in california where the feds came in and shutdown a grow operation but they were not found to violate any inter-state commerce, and thus state sovreignty was violated.... The state of california managed to sue the federal government over it. I wish I could remember the case....

@thegonzoism

@LouisIngenthron

Oh I am sure there are sources out there... I just dont have any and im not a lawyer so i wouldnt know where to look... My understanding comes from hours of lecturing by actual lawyers with my involvement int he cannabis industry.

@thegonzoism

@LouisIngenthron @thegonzoism

Just think about murder if you need another example.. if you commit murder you are usually tried in a state court and go to a state prison, despite it being federally illegal. Only time youll be tried in a federal court and go to federal prison is if the murder is somehow involved across state borders. like if you bury the body in another state.

@LouisIngenthron

The feds only have two ways to act on cannabis.. 1) you commit a cannbis crime across state boundaries 2) they sue the state itself in federal court.

@thegonzoism

@LouisIngenthron

I know its not the vbest argument, and I wish I had a source to cite... But I have worked closely with a lot ofpeople int he industry (including weed maps for example)... most of my knowledge on this comes from directly talking to them and/or their lawyers.

@thegonzoism

@LouisIngenthron

I've got a few connections with people who run grow houses and dispensaries.... its pretty common to avoid inter-state transactions for the reasons I've mentioned.

@thegonzoism

@LouisIngenthron @thegonzoism

Not sure how they limit it, but they make it very clear with a list of banks they accept.. its like 20 banks or so they have on a piece of paper you see at checkout. They look at your debit card before swiping it, I suspect to check the bank, but I dunno.

@LouisIngenthron

No they only take debit card purchasaes from in-state banks.. bank of america for example they wont take even as a debit card.. so it doesnt line up with your assumptions.

@thegonzoism

@LouisIngenthron

That would make no sense since you can use your debit card to make purchases so long as your bank is a local state bank (I do it all the time)...

But your right, banks that operate across states would get in trouble, which is exactly what I just said... but the banks that dont operate across states are free to do so. Which is why i cant use my visa when i buy it but i can use my local debit card just fine.

@thegonzoism