🎓 Dr. Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@social.cleverlibre.org

@JonKramer

ahh there you are making the Fallacy of Composition yet again... yea this is why its clear your in the wrong, you lay into fallacies and even when they are explained to you you just ignore it and keep repeating it....

As stated, I listed over 20 specific votes and introduced bills by both Obama and Biden within the thread that are clearly left wing. So there is that but thats not the point.

You just listed a bunch of left wing things you want to see.. your upset because all the ideals adopted by the left in the USA are moderate left ideals rather than the more extreme left ideals you demand... Just because they arent as extreme as you in their leftism doesnt make them right... A person on the left doesnt have to adopt every single fathomable left-wing idea anyone can favricate in order to be considering ont he left... thats just absurd... That said there have been a ton of left wing stuff they DO support, so the point has been very well proven.

@Free_Idealist @pyranose @georgetakei

@JonKramer

> That you consider an actual left party to be "fringe" is supporting of my position. The ARE fringe. Because they are actual lefties. Obama and Biden are not.

Jesus christ... no... they are fringe because they are a party that has no policy stance on anythign other than a single issue, rent, and in a single state, NYC... They are a joke of a party not because they are too left, but because they arent on the spectrum at all because they have no policy stance on anything other than one remote thing in one state.

@Free_Idealist @pyranose @georgetakei

@JonKramer

> My point was, and is, that there do exist some actual lefty parties. They are NOT in power. Only right wing parties have power in the United States. All left parties are out of power.

Seeing as all the evidence clearly showed the democrats are a left-wing party. Arguing some other left-wing party that is a joke and has no stance on any issue excpet one issue in one state, completely fails to make your point. An obscure non-functional left wing party not being elected but a different left wing party (DNC) being elected does nothing to advance your argument as to whether or not the DNC is left wing.

@Free_Idealist @pyranose @georgetakei

@JonKramer

> That part isn't true. they support laws banning all abortions.

A blatant lie you pulled out your butt there buddy... You just spewed that without ever fact checking it.

Lets look at the real numbers:

Currently there are 22 red states banning abortion. Of those 22 states **every single one of them** has an exception for having an abortion when you have a dead fetus. Although some of may be challenged in court and be in flux, in none of them is the life exception being challenged itself.

In fact all 22 states go beyond this and allow exceptions on abortions when it threatens the life of the mother (which a dead fetus stuck in their whomb would qualify as).

How about the leaders themselves? Well of the whole of the GOP there are only about 5 in all my hours of research I could find who said they would create an abortion ban with no life-exception.. and only one of those people (rubio) would I consider a party leader.

> The push for laws criminalizing women who would travel to other states to get a legal abortion.

Now you just moved the goal post... we are discussing the GOP's stance on abortion when a woman has a dead fetus... not traveling, we can address that seperately but first lets both agree your wrong about the nonsense you spewed earlier before we address other stuff you said.

> In short, there is no argument that the leadership, leaders those 66% of the GOP members support, is in any way, shape or form in favor of body autonomy.

Except for the fact that everything single thing you said to try to argue that point turned out to be a bald face lie without any basis in a reality, and that was shown by both what is actual law, and stated policy

> By extension, if you vote for leaders who stand against body autonomy, YOU are against it. I see no grey here.

Sure, luckily thats not the case here as per the above proof.

@ech @Free_Idealist @pyranose @georgetakei

@JonKramer

No but you did make the argument that not having fringe politicial group in power whose sole purpose is to lower rent prices is an point supporting your argument here (which is about if Obama and Biden are left or right)

@Free_Idealist @pyranose @georgetakei

@JonKramer

Thanks, yes that confirms what i said earlier, it is a single issue party whose focus is on the rent being too high in NY.

@Free_Idealist @pyranose @georgetakei

@JonKramer

66% of "THE PARTY" and its leaders, pushes for exceptions to abortion. 4% push for abortion being illegal under all circumstances... Thereis virtually no support across the whole or aggregate of the GOP to force women to carry dead babies.

@ech @Free_Idealist @pyranose @georgetakei

@JonKramer

Yes, one whose main focus is addressing the issue of the rent being too high (and other matters)... and thus my point

@Free_Idealist @pyranose @georgetakei

@lxo

I am not autistic myself, but i did do an informal expierment with a doctor friend of mine... he wasnt formally my doctor, this was just to prove out the point im talking about here.

I filled out all the questions and did the tests to diagnose autism twice. The first time through I answered all the questions where I explicitly put myself in the mindset of my American social interactions, and in that context. Then I did it again but answered based on my mental state when I live in europe.

Unsuprisingly the test done in the USA context indicated I would strongly on the autistic scale. But then the result for the European test (where mental health and toxicity is far less an issue) showed I was not remotely Autistic.

To me this ultimately proved my point.

> though not formally diagnosed, I often feel the frustration you describe. our being largely insensitive to common propaganda/advertisement triggers used quite effectively for manipulation of the majority of the population makes us Cassandras, able to see through the smokescreen, but unable to break the spell that blinds others.

Thats an interesting take... I'd say what this is describing is the fact that with 90% of the population having severe mental health issues (personality disorders mostly) that they are easier to manipulate emotionally and thus propaganda will work on them more. A person (autist) who is mentally healthy and clear headed cant be as easily manipulated, so it wont work on them.

> but I don't like the us-vs-them stance I sense in your post. difficult as it is to cross the chasm that sets in because of our fundamentally different ways of reasoning and being influenced by emotions, I believe this diversity too can be very enriching to humankind. we need tolerance, inclusion, and disposition to overcome the difficulties from people at all spots in the spectrum, whether neurotypical or neurodivergent

Its not about us vs them... "They" being toxic due to their mental health issues is not somthing intended to attack them. The point here is that this can be realized and instead of wasting psychiatry efforts on treating people that are just the victims, maybe the bulk of the population will address their mental health issues and finally have a healthier society.

@ech

> I do not want to weigh in on what counts as “left” or “right”, but just what is this: “(66%) of the GOP beleive abortion should be legal under extenuating circumstances such as a dead fetus” – no! Pretty much absolutely nobody wants to ban whatever surgery is indicated for miscarriages/etc. Yikes!

I dont still have it in front me.. but only 4% of the GOP support banning abortions even when the mothers life is at risk or a miscarriage. 66% think abortion should only be allowed with extenuating circumstances... the rest think abortion should be allowed in all circumstances.

> This reminds me of something. Awhile ago, there was a poorly-worded bill in CA that righties were saying was going to legalize infanticide. When this was pointed out, it was immediately fixed of course to clarify that it didn’t do that. But this didn’t stop some people from continuing to scaremonger about CA democrats wanting to kill children or whatever. That scaremongering is absurd, and a ridiculous thing to do.

The one thing i realize is that people feel a **need* to misrepresent the facts... almost with everything they have an opinion on... its almost like any nuanced opinion is the same as being the evil guys on the other side.... its tiring and infantile.

@JonKramer @Free_Idealist @pyranose @georgetakei

@funny Weird, why did you post a video that is just black with no image?

@strawd I tend to agree the language around pathology should be addressed... but even if we do that the truth is we still will need to identify some mental patterns as unhealthy and leading to harm, and others that arnt... The point here is the non-autists have a mental pattern that results in harm to their community. Autists are the ones who generally are the rational non toxic ones whos mentality doesnt cause harm but is instead causing them to be victimized by the other group.

@ErikUden

No we dont....

I, like the vast majority of the "guns dont kill people crowd" are very very much pro free speech and against banning of books.

Im sure there are some pro gun people who arent... but to claim they represent the pro-gun rights community is not remotely accurate to reality.

@strawd

> I would say that pathologizing the way a minority of human brains work is the wrong way to go about it, so if that's what you mean by incorrectly diagnosed, then I agree.

That wasnt the point I was making, but is a tangential point I agree with.

> I do think it can be useful to explore how an individual's brain works, and whether they for instance tend to pay a lot more attention to rationality than they do to social norms. Or something along those lines. I'm far from any kind of expert in this area, but I'm learning.

I agree, the issue arrises when you see these two groups and assign one as diseased and the other as healthy... if we want to use those descriptors at all it should be reversed as it is the non-autists who generally create toxic unhealthy social environments.

@JonKramer

> I never made that argument.

You said:

> ...when the Rent is Too Damn High Party has even NYC... then their MIGHT be a left wing in this country

So yea you implied that the rent being too damn high, and it not being addressed the way you want it to be, is somehow an argument in this thread where you are arguing that no (or at least almost no) left wing candidates exist.

This was absurd.

@Free_Idealist @pyranose @georgetakei

@JonKramer

> Research what an executive order is, and how it works. This doesn’t mean he is a dictator, and I never said or implied he was.

I am very well aware of what an executive order is.

They are not legally binding, they are only commands by the president. While people who directly treat him as a boss are expected to follow it, they can not be used to pass laws, pass regulations, or dictate anything to any independent body (like the FDA, FCC, etc)... he can issue them, but they are at best suggestions.

It is also highly irresponsible and abusive to issue them beyond routine administrative issues, despite the fact that they have been abused this way recently.

Regardless as you point out, this doesnt change the equation, he isnt a dictator.

> I am talking the party, not individuals.

What does this even mean... The individuals who make up the party ARE the party.. unless you mean the party manifesto itself, which also does **not** state that abortion of dead fetuses must be illegal as a party stance.

> There are several million young black men in prison who will be happy to hear of this policy change.

Yes, sadly what they did was still illegal. Thankfully Obama pardoned a HUGE number of this group specifically for these reasons.

> Correct. The Dems are a right wing party. Individual members of the party can be far more liberal.

Nope, but good to hear you meant the dems and not the left and understand they arent the same.

> Is pro war a liberal policy?

Pro war is not a left or right wing principle, That exists on a different metric (authoritarianism, as does fascism)

> Increasing the police force?

Increasing the police force would be a left-wing policy stance because it is an attempt at addressing the public welfare by protected against crime... Of course the fact our police force is evil throws a wrench in that, but that isnt Obama's or Biden's choice to make them evil. But yea as a general principle investing in community security would be a left-wing principle, while pushing to make the police for less oppressive to the individual would be a right-wing principle.

> Border patrols?

This bring up an interesting point that wasnt addressed that is important. The GOP cares about individual freedom even if its contrary to community welfare, as I said, but to be more specific "individual freedom of american citizens"

So stronger borders would be a right-wing policy because it is an attempt to favor current citizens welfare by excluding foreigners to the USA where we would have to share our resources.

Soi yea border patrols is clearly a right wing policy since it is designed to protect existing individuals in america over the community welfare of the other countries or world.

> Crime bills?

That would depend specifically on the content of the bill.

> Give me an example of something the DO, not something they vaguely talk about.

Earlier in the thread (though im not sure you were tagged) I listed about a total of 20 specific things Obama and Biden have either voted on, or introduced that are clear left-wing stances

> Show me that they are willing to fight for those things, and not just give lip service to perpetuate political theater.

Yea I did that throught the thread as mentioned

> The relevance is that all sides of the issue agree in principle with some level of force to protect the public health. Neither side mandates it though, or pushes for absolute mandates.

What is left or right wing has **nothing** to do with what policies someone in the RNC or DNC follow... Yopu can not say "most people on the left hold these principles, therefore its a principle of the left" and then use that to define what hte left and right is.

The left and right is defined... if people who consider themselves on the left follow that definition strictly vs loosly

so all that means is when the DNC and the GOP agree on something it is one of three things 1) An issue that is neither left or right wing in nature 2) a left-wing ideology the GOP adopted 3) a right wing ideology the DNC adopted.

> We are discussing the existence of left wing parties in America. I gave example that would show their existence. Examples that do not exist. Because, there is no left wing party in America.

Which is exactly why your wrong. This is an invalid logical fallacy called the fallacy of composition. You can not assume that the parts must have the same properties as the whole.

In this sense the "whole" is "left-wing ideology" (or right) and the "part" is "someone who is on the left".. A liberal who is part of the left wing does **not** need to adopt the infinite number of potential left wing policies in the whole of the universe in order to qualify as being part of the left-wing.

> No, YOU are saying that. I say they are demonstrably right wing.

Yes what i meant by that is "this is what we are debating" you debating the opposite... and in this particular quote you were failing to argue the point.

@Free_Idealist @pyranose @georgetakei

@baldengineer Thanks for this, love seeing more EE content here.