🎓 Dr. Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@social.cleverlibre.org

@admin

> I'd gathered, which is why I'm surprised at your stance.

The fact that this suprises you at all is so so telling about the world. Why should me loosing personally have any effect on my judgement of what is right or wrong. If I am on the side of wrong, and I am by owning those resources, then I should welcome what is right.

This is what drives me nuts about people on both sides of this... no one is willing to do whats right, even if it means loss for them... they care more about keeping what they have then being held accountable for their theft or murders or wrong doing.

> Israel ceases its objections to an actual, organized Palestinian State, and Israel gives up land for that Palestinian State to exist.....

I dont think israel has a right to take land from palestine simply because the rest of the world doesnt want them..

But hey if palestinians were willing to let their land be stolen and agreed to that and generously gave them their land because they wanted to... then yea by all means I agree with you that form of peace would be great.

But I cant imagine **anyone** just giving away part of their country they have lived on for thousands of years to be completely taken from them.

At best just letting the isralis stay under pallestinian rule would be extremely generous since palestinians were never asked like they should have been.

What israel needs to do is recognize **they** are in the wrong as invaders and take a position of humility,w here they admit the wrongs they did and ask, humbly, to be integrated (or have some modest piece of land)... but they need to come at it knowing they are wrong and knowing they are **asking** ffor the generocity of Palestine, and not just take what was never theirs.

@ech

@admin

You do know I have 1.2 million in assets in Israel and spent the last 2 years living there right?

You realize I am one of those people who would be effected by the very thing I'm proposing. I would be kicked out and loose all of those resources. Something that is right, so I accept it.

@ech

@admin

Why do you keep ignoring half of what I said and design an argument around that.

No...

They can choose (ie self-determination) to move anywhere thy would like to immigrate to, funded by the germans to make sure they can afford the process.

Integrating into palestine is only an option, not the only one.

The only thing they cant do is keep stolen land they took through violence that was never theirs... other than that one little restriction I'd say getting a butt load of money to figure out your life isnt half bad. I mean it sucks, but dont have blood on your hands then?

@ech

@admin

Almost but missing a few points.

1) the hamas is dissolved by foreign government and transitional government formed as a democracy of palestinians and those who were on the land before it was taking from them is formed.

2) Israelis have the option to leave (funded by Germany and the israel liquidation) if they do not wish to integrate with the people they stole the land from.

@ech

@admin

I should point out one other addition here that I didnt before, but it makes a big difference.

Ideally a third party should come in, invade them both to enforce the outcome I mentioned AND while the palestinian government takes over the entire country the hamas and the current government is deposed and a transitional government put in place to ensure democracy and terrorism is addressed.. largely to make sure the jews have a fair time of it and dont get slaughtered during the process.

But in the end, it should be the democratic voice of the palestinian people who get to decide who and how people are allowed to remain in their country

@ech

@admin

> I believe you and I are at odds on one thing - I believe that Israel DOES have the right to exist. Jews were living in Palestine for centuries prior to the "British Occupancy"... They may or may not have had control of their government, and they may or may not have had a voice in their government (vis a vis the British), etc, but Jews have lived in that region for more than three millennia.

See what you just explained to me is a reason why "Jews have a right to continue to live in the area"... they do.. that isnt the same as saying they have a right to take away the land from others and call it their own simply because they have been living there a while.

There were jews in palestine for a long while, I completely agree those jews that have been there for many generations, and even the ones born there now, have a right to be there, its just, as part of palestine... What they dont have a right to do is take palestine for themselves and kick everyone else out.

Thats why in my solution israel citizens would have a right to stay, but only by being absorbed by palestine and participating in their democracy,

> The creation of a Jewish State in that region was a direct result of the atrocities perpetrated on Jews by the Nazis in Germany and the Fascista is Italy. The world decided Jews needed their own country.

If the world decided that then the **only** country they **may** have had a right to give them was germany.

I think your britsh, or maybe american? How would you feel if the UN decided that british/USA is now split, down the middle, and half of it will go to ukranians because of their abuse? Obviously britain would object, but hey the world decided right?

No one can make that decision except for the people of a country... so the UN, someone who had no authrotiy to give away palestine, was illegitimate in making that decision... Nothing short of a vote from palestinians themselves would have made it a valid decision in my eyes.

> Would you be willing to give up Philly and all the land around it for 100 miles so that Israel can move in there? No? How about NYC? Rome?

No because the same reason giving away palestine was wrong so is giving up NYC or anywhere else.. the truth is, jews have a home, its wherever those jews lived.. after the holocause they should have went bac to their homes or immigrated through normal means... I can list tons of religions who dont have a country of their own, are we supposed to kick people out of other countries and give them all a home? No... not every group has a country of their own, thats ok.

> Your point that "Jews weren't there" is proved false by the census data you yourself provided. Jews WERE there, and have been for over 3,000 years.

I didnt say jews werent there (if i did i mispoke).. I said **israelis** werent there... PAlestinian jews are perfectly valid and should have been allowed to remain palistinians. It was when the jews decided to invade, as outsiders, and take the land as Isralis that it was wrong, and no isralis were **not** there.

> Your point that a foreign power's (Britain's) abuse was an invasion is correct, however, at the time the Israeli government was formed, there was no Palestinian government. Israel's legitimacy was created by the League of Nations at the time, and they were dumped into a region which had no government.

The very existance of a people on a land makes a government. It may be a libertarian government (in the sense that there is no central authority) but that does not make the peoples claim to the land any less legitimate. In fact the idea that someone can come in and just take land simply because a people dont want nor need a centra government is a horrible piece of logic.

> I've got blood on both sides of this war. Israel isn't blameless, and neither are those acting in the name of Palestine. Just as the U.S. is guilty of atrocities, and every other government in existence, I condemn the atrocities, but the atrocities do not change whether that government has a right to govern until the world decides to take those countries to war.

I agree, having attrocities in your past doesnt determine if you have a right to govern... The reason the Israeli government has not right is because they are the invading and occupying force.. palestine (as a united nation with both jews and arabs present) is the legitimate and occupied government.

> Israel's government is legitimate - because the rest of the world didn't want Jews in their countries, because there was no existing government in the region at the time, and because of longevity.

No you dont get to boot people from their country because their form of government isnt centralized enough for you... not at all.

> And you now want to boot modern Jews out of their own homes - the only homes they've known for 4 generations? and make Germany pay for it?

No I gave two paths as options 1) if they dont want to live in palestine they can leave (funded by germans/israel) yes they can be "booted" or 2) they have a right to stay but they must stay under the government of palestine and go through the proper legal channels to become citizens of that government.

@ech

@ThreeSigma Thanks, this tracks.

@lewriley

NVM i just refreshed your profile on my server and it now shows as your main profile... was able to send a follow request afterall.

@khird

@lewriley

For me your mas.to account is actually showing as forwarding to calkey, not the other way around.

the child porn and a few other incidents with your server were in the past. It wasnt an issue for qoto.org as we never noticed it on our end (if we had we would have blocked) but since we didnt we never blocked.

Calkey has us blocked because they got blocked once and then tried to blame us for "tricking" them so they blocked us.. its a long story.

In the end they wound up on the fediblock.lgbt list and then shortly after that they changed their server name to circumvent the list.

You can still see the old block list though: https://fediblock.lgbt/

@khird

@lewriley

By the way cant seem to follow you.. says you moved but its to a domain that is blocked for child porn (dont worry not accusing you of that).

@khird

@lewriley

Thank you.. that lines up with my assumptions (with a bit more detail)... thanks!

@khird

@admin

Actually that last part I said, I want to modify it a bit...

The resolution should be that the entire Israeli fovernment liquidates as I saidm and that money distributed to all current citizens who want to leave before being absorbed by palestine.

In addition Germany should be required to pay some lump sum of money to help fund any israelis who want to immigrate away as well before beind absorbed.

@ech

@admin

Oh and thank you for your well thought out, reasoned, and practical take..

Obviously i agree with much of it as well.

@ech