🎓 Dr. Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@social.cleverlibre.org

@post

So you basically agree with me. The problem isnt the money, its the fact that politicians can be bought

@rbreich

@admitsWrongIfProven im not saying its the best motivator... but wanting to make a lot of money is a fine motivator as long as you dont let it take priority over your ethics. But yes there may be better motivators as well

@admitsWrongIfProven Unchecked greed can be quite harmful.. ironically in a government with sane capitalism and fair markets that "greed" can be used as a force to drive innovation.. but greed is dangerous and more often than not we dont have "sane" governments so in reality that greed causes harm not good.

@admitsWrongIfProven I suppose it depends on what state of affairs we are talking about. Monopolies are an issue, corruption is an issue, bias in politics, there is an enfless list of major problems out there. While I wouldnt say there is a "capitalism" problem I think its fair to say that greed certainly drives a lot of our problems.

@realcaseyrollins

I just dont think letting people die for being poor, even if they are lazy, is going to give us the best society for all involved.

@bot

@admitsWrongIfProven This isnt my definition.. the definition of capitalism is basically two parts, though one is inferred from the other so really one part:

1) private ownership of wealth and profits
2) Supply and demand regulates price

If you allow monopolies then #2 is no longer honored, therefore by definition it is not captialism.

I think you are getting into the problem of seeing capitalism as a type of government rather than a property of government... capitalism in its pure form doesnt exist, though many governments have it as a principle that has different priorities depending on the government.

@admitsWrongIfProven What you are describing is how in modern times there is a lack of capitalism. Capitalism is a property adopted by some governments where the laws are geared towards ensuring a free and fair market. A true capitalism, therefore, will have anti-trust laws (prohibit monopolies). So all you are really saying is that in the modern world we have abandoned capitalism and as such companies like Amazon are able to abuse the system to their benefit.

@admitsWrongIfProven haha i mean thry sued a company with a logo of a pear... so not much thry wont stop at ;)

@admitsWrongIfProven id be curious to see hiw a coop based apple performs... yYou shoukd start one ;)

@admitsWrongIfProven

I am not saying co-ops cant solve other problems, as I said it seems to work well for farms... I am just saying that in most cases its not the right solution, or describing the problem correctly.

For example we dont have a problem with iphones, yes they are expensive, but there are cheap alternatives and most people just buy the cheap alternatives, a few people buy expensive iphones.. its not really an issue that iphones are super expensive because it simply lowers demand and drives people to buy other products, creating a healthy marketplace with competitors at all sorts of price ranges.

@rbreich You have your priorities mixed up... people making more than everyone else, no matter the extent is **not** the issue. It only detracts from the real issue, which is the quality of living of the poorest people below the poverty line.

Wealth is not a pie, a fixed thing with only so much to go around. One person having more does **not** mean someone else has to have less. Wealth is something constantly being created and destroyed, the real question is why arent the poor able to create wealth.

@admitsWrongIfProven I'm not sure I get your point... In a totally unregulated market you have to pay to get healthcare, the demand for healthcare is infinite and thus people will pay extortion level prices to get it.. If they dont pay thoseprices you dont have access.

In a socialized system you have access regardless of if you can afford it, thats what makes it socialized. The demand is still infinite (people would pay anything to live longer healthier lives), but the costs are fixed.

Consumer goods arent remotely similar, the demand isnt infinite.

@admitsWrongIfProven Yes the demand is for healthcare (access to tools that extends one life).. not for a specific quantity of pills.

@admitsWrongIfProven The point here is not if the scenario is realistic or not. The point is you would pay **anything** for that 20 years, and most people would pay anything for ayear or even a month.. If someone is dying and they need an antibiotic no one will go "I'd rather die than spend 100$, just too expensive"... the demand for life is infinite, and no matter how much demand there is for something like an iphone it simply isnt infinite no matter how excessive it may be.

Now that doesnt mean you cant extort people with consumer goods, nor am I saying there isnt an issue in consume goods that is unhealthy... but the issues of overpriced goods is in another class of discussion than that of infinite demand.

@bot I am not sure I would pick that particular language, but short answer, yes.. I think anyone too poor to afford health insurance should have it provided by the government along with tools to get them out of poverty.

I dont like the word "entitled" here, however and prefer to say that it is in the best interest of society to look after those in society who are struggling.

@admitsWrongIfProven

If I told you that you were going to die in 24 hours, but if you gave me everything you owned you would live another 20 years, would you do it? Most people would.

Demand for iphones may be high but they dont approach infinite... If you learned today all your cellphones were destroyed and the only way for you to get one was to give up everything you owned and you'd get an iphone for 20 years, most people wont do it.

Ever increasing demand is not the same as infinite demand, there is still an equilibrium point. There are **many** cheap phones and a great many people will reject expensive iphones and get a much more affordable phone. Very few people would pay less if they knew paying less meant dying for healthcare, if they have a choice.

I think "What capitalism has become" is a very misleading and harmful choice of language... capitalism doesnt become things, its a core principle among thousands of other principles that make up a government. Capitalism doesnt exist in any pure form. Governments have become corrupt, corperations get away with things they shouldnt, this is likely what you mean and it has nothing to do with the idea of capitalism, which is just a fancy term for "fair markets where all players get a fair shake". Capitalism just means "free markets", and what "capitalism has become" is a fancy way of saying "the markets arent free anymore"... which really is anti-capitalism and not some neo new age capitalism at all :)