🎓 Dr. Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@social.cleverlibre.org

@AT1ST

Here are 24 rooms for rent in manhatten/nyc area all under $600

https://www.cirtru.com/rooms-for-rent/manhattan-ny?upperPrice=600

@MisuseCase @knittingknots2

@AT1ST

Sure, one quick example (first hit) is $650, so 50 above what I said but fairly close:

https://www.spareroom.com/rooms-for-rent/ny/brooklyn/east_flatbush/102394071

@MisuseCase @knittingknots2

@AT1ST

Just checked Toronto. Studio Apt. for $350: https://www.zumper.com/apartments-for-rent/56143180/room-for-rent-willowdale-toronto-on

@MisuseCase @knittingknots2

@lovelylovely

To be fair I have literally never heard a republican say that. Most when discussing climate change seem to think they know better than scientists.

@AT1ST

I did a search when we first spoke for rooms for rent in Manhatten. I tried to pick livable locations (clean) at the low end of the range that popped up. They were ~$500 give or take $100. The lowest I saw was $300, Obviously the higher end goes almost as high as you can imagine though.

@MisuseCase @knittingknots2

@johnfugelsang

And 4 years ago an actual Segregationist, a politician who spent the start of his career for years to keep segregation alive is now president.

I in no way can support Trump. But him speaking at a location loosely connected to a founding segregationist doesnt hold a candle to having Biden, a literal segregationist, as president.

@AT1ST

We arent talking about a number thats slightly off... your math error was off by an order of x3. Completely reversing the results. Even if you pull the numbers back to being $3 a meal you wind up with food being about the same price as rent for a cheap room in manhatten., so the point is still moot.

@MisuseCase @knittingknots2

@AT1ST

Right, which is more (both in cost and space) than renting a room. Everythign above what you need is luxury. This is luxury, im not saying its MUCH luxury, but it is luxury.

@MisuseCase @knittingknots2

@AT1ST

And you dont see the backpeddling your doing... Your whole argument was "look rent is more than double food". Then when you find out its the reverse, that food is actually double the price of rent now your trying to change the numbers **you** set and tweak the equations for it to still work out to your argument.

Can you not see the confirmation bias and back peddling right now? Clearly even when i turn out to be correct when **you** lay the ground rules, you still dont accept the conclusion and change the rules....

I will end the discussion there, I think that leaves you with enough to think about, and hopefully youll realize you werent being objective here and no matter what rules you set or what the facts said you wouldnt have changed your mind, as we see here.

Feel free to reach out on future discussions if youd like, I enjoyed it. Just saying if i cant convince you even when i play by your axioms and rules then there is no conversation left to be had.

@MisuseCase @knittingknots2

@AT1ST

> "Look how big your house is" - I can stand from one end of it and look at the other end, and see all of it. It's not a multi-story studio apartment. And I'm *missing a bedroom*.

You are, presumably, a single person. You are not missing a bedroom. You have a whole home just for you, that is luxury, you have far more than you **need**. All a single person needs is a room to rent, anything more is a luxury. Nothing wrong with you having luxury, and being able to afford it. But it is more than what is needed to live.

> Oh, and this doesn't include utilities, so this is before resources I consume.

No utilities arent the only resource you consume. You are missing the biggest one, space.

> And it's not like I can't use some of the space to "Cheapen it out" - this is how it came.

The way you'd "cheapen it out" is by not getting a space that is more than what you need. You got more than you need and wanted the luxury of it, and you pay more than you need to pay for that luxury. No single tenant **needs** more than a room, but it is nice that rent is so cheap that you can afford the luxury of more than you need.

@MisuseCase @knittingknots2

@AT1ST

> Food has utility that you also need every day, but even at $10 a meal, that only comes up to ~310 a month.

$10 a meal is $10*3*30.. so $900. Which is double the cost of rending a cheap room in the most expensive area in the USA.

> To reach the amount I'm paying for rent, every meal I'd be eating would be $30. That's 4.5 avocado toasts...per meal, every meal.

No, you messed up the math, it is 1/3 what your calculating.

> That's a cost that would indicate that the "Thing you need" is being charged at luxury pricing, despite not being a luxury, but a thing people need.

Since your own example had an error in and the actual numbers line up with my own statement, since this was your example and convincing to you when it had the error does this mean you now change your mind and admit rent is cheap?

If not, ask yourself why was it a convincing argument with incorrect numbers and when the actual numbers show the exact opposite it suddenly stops being a convincing argument to you.

> There's no reason rent needs to be so high, anywhere.

I mean you were literally off by a factor of x3 in this comparison....

@MisuseCase @knittingknots2

@AT1ST

> I'm saying that the sheer cost of the renting of an apartment is really, really high, relative to any other thing one could reasonably buy to get to the amount one spends on rent.

Of course it is... Look how big your house is, and look at the resources you consume taking up that space month after month... Then look at how little utility a PS5 gets you and how little space and resources it takes up.... Of **course** a place to rent costs you several PS5 a month, it should probably cost you more, its remarkably cheap compared to something that is literally for playing games.

> And it's a monthly expenditure.

Right, as one would expect it to be. Again look at the amount of resources and utilities for a place to live compared to a toy.

> Hypothetically we can add it up and find that, in a year and 3 months, and...that money is enough to buy a small used sailing yacht (Apparently they can sell for $15K...or less.).

If you bought a 15K sailing yacht youd have to invest another 20K into it to bring it up to snuff minimum, AND you'd have to pay the fee to dock it, which would be about the same price as rent. How is this even a valid comparison, it literally winds up being about the same price range as renting a home. Many people choose to rent or buy a yacht and live out of it. In fact if yachts are so comparible there you have it you proven another alternative and affordable living option. QED.

@MisuseCase @knittingknots2

@AT1ST

> It would be stupid, I agree - but it's luxury to be able to *afford* them.

ITs a luxury to be able to afford anything that has no utility. If i could afford to buy 10 $10 nikon phones every day despite having no use for more than one, thats a luxury too. But being able to afford $500 for rent is not a luxury, in fact that is cheap.

What makes something a luxury isnt the price, its the cost to utility ratio.

> I'm paying my landlord, in rent, enough for her to buy 2 PS5s a month...for being able to live in a 0 bedroom place.

Or enough for her to buy 100 nokia phones... again the fact that you can spend the money on shit you dont need is hardly an indication that the price is high. Yea its a luxury if she can waste the money on nonsense, so?

> How does that not seem wasteful luxury to be able to afford that place, because quite literally that is what my landlord can charge for my place.

Because luxury is when you spend a lot of money for something with no utility. It has nothing to do with how many PS5s you can buy.

> I'm saying that living with my parents rent free and then doing that is equivalent in cost. Per month. To live in a room.

Ok, and? Luxury has nothing to do with the cost of a thing compared to some other arbitrary thing.

@MisuseCase @knittingknots2

@AT1ST

> More than one a month?

Buying more than one PS5 a month wouldnt be luxury, it would just be stupid.

> It gives off "Kid drove a Porsche into a ditch, and their parents bought them another one" level of luxury.

Not saying its affordable to buy multiplke PS5 a month, but its a poor measure of luxury. Might as well measure it in 10,000 rubber bands.

> For perhaps a more clear way to put it - this guy [ https://youtu.be/ifAm3Vp0JnU?si=EdI_uvcv8c6XH23N ] (For the purposes of the skit) is more "Fiscally responsible" than people who live in my city for 2-3 months, or the apartment my parents rent to people...for 5 months.

Being fiscally responsible isnt about how much you spend in a month. Buyng 2 ps5 every month at the same price as rent doesn't make it equally fiscally responsible as spending it on rent. Thus why the comparison is nonsensical.

@MisuseCase @knittingknots2

@AT1ST

I mean a ps5 is hardly a luxury item.. Most kids I know who live with their parents were able to afford one. It seems like a kinda horrible comparison to start with. Luxury items are like gold necklaces or a porche, not a video game console made for children, teens and adults that almost everyone owns.

@MisuseCase @knittingknots2

@AT1ST

> gets on my nerves when people say that the homeless or others just need to have better spending habits.

Like I said, its simply the truth (though the word "just" is wrong there, its only one aspect of the issue).

Like I said I have helped many people over the years get out of poverty and 100% of them all had bad spending habits as part of the problem. Often there are other issues as well, but that is always a huge aspect. You and people you know buying hugely expensive homes because they can afford it is fine. Doesnt change the fact there are very affordable options for those who cant too.

@MisuseCase @knittingknots2

Interesting fact of the day: There is a theory in various forms that basically goes something like: We literally can not see that which we lack the language to describe. It was largely used as a theory around color and stems from the fact that before we had as many words for colors as we do today people would describe things as if implying they literally couldnt see the colors that lacked words. For example int he Iliad and the Odyssey the water was described as "purple like wine" because we had not yet had a word for blue.

@AT1ST

Right, which is nearly twice the price of renting a room in the most expensive area in the USA (Manhattan)... Which would suggest unless your in Manhattan itself there are cheaper options, even if there wasnt a rent freeze. If I knew the specific area I'd probably find one as an example.

@MisuseCase @knittingknots2

@AT1ST

> Are those the places that are often described as shoeboxes, sometimes not having a dedicated bathroom or kitchen?

They are rooms to rent in a home you'd share with other roomates. So you'd have a shared bedroom and kitchen, and one room in the home to yourself.

Yes you can pay more and obviously get much more space to yourself. But we are talking about affordability, that is a choice your making, and if you can afford it, enjoy. The point is most people get more space than they can afford, and there are much cheaper and very livable options until you improve your career.

@MisuseCase @knittingknots2