pies @pies@social.cleverlibre.org

@freemo @MelodyCooper @zack I'm not talking about gun violence but murder rate.

@freemo @MelodyCooper @zack No, I think guns play a major role in murder rate. They're not the only factor, obviously, but they're the big one.

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo So your conclusion is that both gun ownership and murder rates are both caused by poverty?

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo The other conclusion being that people started buying guns after all the knife shootings?

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper But sure, here you go, a list of studies linking number of guns to homicide rates. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/

Let me guess, it doesn't prove causation, because it's a study.

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper Whatever I could provide you'll just say that I'm wrong and you don't have to provide any proof because you did before. What would be the point?

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper Still the same :D No, I'm not changing the subject, I'm literally answering your question. And sure, let's say I also provided my data and sources elsewhere, so we can be done.

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper You have not provided data for any of those assertions:

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper Sure, that's the reason you haven't provided any data. That's the reason our conversation led nowhere. Well, good luck with your safety guns.

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper Yeah, this kind of goes as expected :) Gun nuts ask for data, then they don't like the data, they have no data, and they keep believing. Well, I hope more people come to their senses, their democratic voice gets heard, and you fix your glaring problem so that gun nuts around here don't point to US and claim you're doing great despite the guns.

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper So my data is unspecifically invalid, gotcha.

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper Which one are you questioning? Murder rates, number of gang-related homicides, Swiss gun laws?

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo I still don't see any data or links.

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo And what is the source for this assertion?

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo And no, I'm not skipping around, or moving the goalpost. I'm talking about the reasons for US having so many more murders than any other rich country.

I do appreciate that US has many structural problems that may cause people to turn to violence, from prolific lack of access to basic necessities of life like health care and housing, to an incredibly harmful mass incarceration system you've built, to a lack of support for getting out of poverty that plagues vast swaths of US. I get that. And that's quite unusual for a rich country and I'm sure contributes to the problem. And if you had like 50% or even 100% more murders, I could buy that argument. But the disparity is much, much larger.

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo Where are those stats then? You claim the reasons are different, and you keep moving the goalpost on that (so it's not gang violence after all?)

I'm curious to know what particular piece of data makes you so sure it's not the easy access to guns that's causing all those extra murders to happen.

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo CDC estimates that gang violence was responsible for 10% of overall homicides in 2020. So I think you need another excuse.

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo And you go on and on about things that aren't US-specific. What is different about the US that causes you guys to murder each other much more frequently than in, say, Spain or UK?

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo Sorry, it was you. And I assumed the shooting on France you've mentioned was a mass shooting?