Trinsec @Qoto @trinsec@social.cleverlibre.org

@thatbrickster Oh? I must've missed the development here, since I'm not really following this up close. So what's that interpretation like now?

@thatbrickster Huh, that seems to be quite a difference. I mean, why specifically vegan instead of vegetarian?

@mur2501 Aw. And aw.

@Kovaelin As opposed to the princess being in another castle?
That'd be a nicer alternative, yeah.

I absolutely love Dark Reader. Teams' built in editors hurt my eyes because of all the brightness. But hey, they allow me to open the document in the browser! Dark Reader to the rescue!
https://darkreader.org

Every time I've worked on my work laptop, I'm always so glad to be back on my semi-work laptop. The work laptop is just a thing of misery because of the shitty VPN connection. Thankfully Teams works on both, so I can continue on this dream that's my semi-work laptop.

@freemo
The problem is that I'll just have to believe you on your word that guns would've improved our numbers, and that removing guns would've made American numbers look even worse.

From the examples you've given, it sounds like we'd better put more effort in mental health access and all that other stuff instead. That sounds much more fruitful in the long term.

Like you said before, we obviously disagree. I am actually getting weary and would like to head to bed soon since it's near midnight here.

Agree to disagree?

@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @mur2501

@freemo
That's exactly it. You are convinced that it would be less with responsible gun ownership.

Why can't USA prove the same by having lower average crime statistics for the same crimes right now? They've got the guns, surely the rape incidence should be a lot less than my country?

Let's grab this link, I hope it is official enough:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/rape-statistics-by-country

Rape rate in NL is 9.20 and DE is 9.40. Rape rate in USA is 27.30, but man, it got the guns.

What strikes me as funny is that the Scandinavic countries have a higher rape rate than central Europe... while gun ownership is a bit more easy over there. Surprised me a bit. Belgium's fucking scary as well, despite that they also seem to have more easy gun laws than we do.

So, it doesn't seem to be a guarantee at all. I do not agree with your conviction that responsible gun ownership would've prevented all this. Who ensures that only the responsible ones own them? If after decades of experience USA can't manage this, why would we even think of entering this rabbit hole?

@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @mur2501

@freemo
I think I've read about the incident in that church before. In a country that's already so infused with firearms, it is a good thing to own one to prevent such situations from escalating. Because to de-arm the American civilians (and criminals) at this point is pretty much impossible.

Europe, however, is a totally different beast. Especially in the urban areas. To introduce guns there like USA has would not improve it, of that I am certain.

Europe is basically almost a gigantic no-gun zone. Yet we don't really seem to have criminals waltzing around with guns in abundance. Sure, knives are a possibility. But knives are around aplenty, so pretty easy to get. And if guns were legal, they'd get crafty and 'acquire' guns instead.

So long the average statistics show that USA is not in better shape regarding violent cases (murder, rape, etc) than my country, I am not feeling terribly inclined to vote for easier gun laws here. Even though the average American citizen is able to defend themselves, apparently it is not really making society that much safer.

There will always be extreme cases, like terrorism. But that's exactly it, an extreme case. Even in USA it's hard to fight this, despite their gun laws.

@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @mur2501

@freemo @servant_of_the_anime_avatars
Point taken about the martial arts. I'll retract that statement, that was a good reasoning and naive of me.

But you're talking about the viewpoint where it is a criminal who is not allowed guns. In the other debate I wasn't talking about this viewpoint at all. What if they do own a gun legally?

(Also, if every non-criminal can get guns, then criminals would be more likely to be able to get guns as well. In a society where guns are abundant, they can be stolen and sold off to criminals easier.)

So if the woman in Germany was allowed a gun.. who's to guarantee that those rapists weren't carrying a gun either? Especially with those intentions they'd prepare accordingly. Instead of a knife, they might actually have put her at gunpoint.

@mur2501

@freemo @servant_of_the_anime_avatars

"Guns are the great equalizer."

I thought it was about freedom, not a 'level playing field'.
Guess the argument I had the other day wasn't quite 100% correct. Everybody needs guns, apparently, in order to be able to defend themselves, or to even live normally at all.

And it is terrible what happened to that woman in Germany. But would the outcome really be that different if they had guns? There could be deaths, and it might not even be the culprits who died. We don't know, so it's pure speculation at this point. It is also not a common occorence, thankfully.

Go learn martial arts if you're seriously concerned about your well-being. That's allowed.

@mur2501

@freemo Those wars right now are not in my country, and I sincerely hope that's going to stay this way. 'Prepare for peace, build an army', civilians are not armies. You might think your militia is, because of your constitution, but we don't.

We send troops over the world as support to try to help resolve some of those wars. Our army is geared to try to stabilize regions and de-escalate situations.

Might bigger armies be needed, we still have conscription in our laws. It is merely put on hold, but it can be put back in use any time. The government decided having professionals was the way to go, so our army is full of trained people which can be used in any situation.

I will have to trust my government. I do trust my government. It probably helps that a chance of a type like that orange guy getting in office and deciding everything is extremely slim.

@mur2501

@servant_of_the_anime_avatars That is not true. You have the right to defend yourself. Just not with a firearm here.

@freemo @mur2501

@freemo Oh don't pull that wording to me. Saying all kinds of scary things and then adding a 'I hope that is not going to be the case' is still fearmongering. You planted the idea of a fearful scenario to prove why weapons would be necessary. But hey, you do hope it's not necessary! :P

@mur2501

@freemo Good news, you're allowed a weapon here for hunt or sport. Get your license and have fun!

https://www.politie.nl/themas/wapens.html#alinea-title-hoe-krijg-ik-een-wapenvergunning

I consider the rest to be a rather pessimistic view of the world and bordering on fearmongering. :P

@mur2501

@freemo None of those coalitions in the past were as advanced as the EU. Despite what the British tried to sabotage. :P

We have much better cooperation with our neighbours than USA has with theirs.

Look, I'm thinking you're hugely considering this from your American POV. Maybe you're feeling you can get invaded any time, and that every civilian probably should be armed for that eventuality. I'm thinking it's a paranoid way of living.

If we get invaded, the armies are going to be better armed than the civilians, no matter what. It's the era of drones and planes. We have a fairly good air force, a hand gun is going to be a shitty comparison there.

@mur2501

@freemo I have to agree with @mur2501 here. That's not a good enough argument. It's a theory at best.

And precisely to avoid a WWII scenario from happening, we formed the EU. Guns are supposed to be not necessary.

The countries who do have guns are either 1) Countries who are big on hunting (Norway, Finland, even in my country you CAN own a gun but with restrictions), or 2) Countries who have had a difficult past fairly recently (civil wars and such, illegal firearms left over).

You're moving on from 'freedom' to 'necessity' here.

@freemo Heh, way to go to compare a situation from 80 years ago with now. 😝

Besides, I do fully expect soldiers to be armed, jeez.

@VictorVenema Huh, really? I bet the US army had better equipment tho.
@freemo

@freemo The Dutch were absolutely not prepared for WWII. Shitty equipment, and not expecting to be invaded at all. We kinda expected a repeat of WWI.