tripu @tripu@social.cleverlibre.org
Technologist, Spaniard, male, 42
Joined May 2020
> _“Puidgemont, Junts and other seperatist parties are not opposed to democracy”_
They are.
Exhibit A: nine years ago, the separatist Catalan government authorised police force to stop a popular “multireferendum” about a number of social issues in Catalonia, confiscating ballot boxes. Clearly, the Catalan leaders do not think that casting a ballot is always okay.
Exhibit B: Neither Puigdemont nor his party believe in self-determination of peoples as a principle: in 2014, the party and Puigdemont himself voted against a parliamentary motion for the self-determination of the Palestinians and the Syrian Kurds, and against a referendum for the independence of the Saharawi people of the West Sahara.
Exhibit C: When asked about the possibility of regions within Catalonia (eg, Tarragona, the Aran Valley) being given the chance to become independent themselves, to stay in Spain, or to become part of France, Puigdemont and his acolytes have consistently either evaded the question or answered negatively.
> _“It's very simple”_
If only!
> _“Fascists […] are the enemies of democracy. By agreeing to form coalitions with them [a poitical party excludes] itself from other options”_
“Enemy of democracy” is such a vaporous and loaded term. But OK, let's play that game.
Bildu is the umpteenth rebranding of the “political arm” of the ETA. Bildu supported terrorist attacks and enabled the violence that killed more than 800 people over many years, and continue to do so. You mention people “who show Swastikas and the fascist salute”… Well, Bildu has (had) some of its leaders behind bars for _shooting innocent village mayors, journalists, passers-by, etc, and for planting bombs_, all in the name of the “nation”. Talk about fascism! And in case you think they're the enemies of the Spanish regime only (not “of democracy”) they have always attacked _Basque_ democracy and fellow Basques who didn't think like them.
If Vox is fascist, Bildu definitely so.
So, by having agreed years ago to form a coalition with them, and announcing now that they will continue to do so, why is the PSOE not being excluded from other options? Why are Sumar, Coalición Canaria and a few other little parties allied with them?
> _There is no *profit* if we force capitalists to account for the negative impacts we allow them subsidize at our collective expense_
What negative impacts do a great musician, a very skilled surgeon, or a freelance journalist have?
That's a dishonest sleight of hand that you did there.
The PP hasn't signed agreements with anyone “who show Swastikas and the fascist salute”.
_Any_ organisation with more than a few members has a fringe, freaks, psychopaths.
We have to analyse what the leaders say and do. Otherwise, no major party would come out unscathed.
The PSOE was (and will continue to be) in power with Podemos. The leaders of Podemos are avowed communists. The radical left has its own share of goons and even killers.
Anyway, none of this is relevant. I despise Vox, too. I don''t want them in power. I won't defend “the right”.
For the sake of making progress in the debate, assume we agree: Vox is made up of fascists. And the right is full of resentment.
How does any of that make this specific amnesty legal or ethical?
> _“Amnesty is a perfect legal instrument in a democracy”_
In _what_ democracy? Our Constitution doesn't even mention the idea. Lots of lawyers and entire associations of judges, left and right, say it would be illegal. Libertarians say so. A few magnates of the PSOE are saying so even today. Pedro Sánchez _himself_ and lots of his sycophants at the very top (eg, ministers) said there could be no amnesty because it'd be against the law and the Constitution _until a few months ago_.
> _“Modern Spain was founded on the base of an Amnesty law”_
Very different circumstances. That amnesty was widely understood to be “the last one”. An amnesty was necessary to start from scratch, simply because there was no rule of law at the time (it was autarchy emanating from a coup d'etat).
> _“There were several cases of ‘tax amnesty’”_
Yes. Two by the PSOE and one by the PP. Very different in nature to what is being announced now. And at least one of them was declared illegal by the Constitutional Court.
So what?
> _“The real reason why the right-wing is protesting is that they lost the elections and now want to divide society”_
It's not “the right-wing” protesting. Puigdemont's own party is right-of-centre. The Basque separatists of the PNV, who are _not_ protesting, are definitely in the right. Roughly half the country is opposed — and so is part of the moderate right, the centre, and lots of intellectuals and judges.
Pardoning criminals and supporting secession is, _by definition_, more divisive than applying the law and defending the unity of the country.
Plan for a warm Saturday morning
Of course. We all live in bubbles. I am no less ignorant about what goes on in Germany, or in Thailand. We are all quite UK- and US-centric, I guess.
This is my opinion. You'll find plenty of Spaniards who will give you the exact opposite.
What can I say.
Yes, those are fascists too.
The good news is, nobody's signing a deal with them.
My point of view about the situation in #Spain (/cc @admitsWrongIfProven):
> _“The gouvernment that brought you good things for the people”_
Err… sure. What government does not bring at least some “good things for the people”?
> _“I heard nothing negative about them in terms of caring for the people”_
Not sure I understand. One does not need to hear anything specific to know that in a democracy of ~48M people millions of voters think that the government is not “caring for the people” properly, much, or at all.
In this case: I think this government “didn't care” much for the youth (transfers of wealth from younger generations to boomers in the form of public pensions, massive public debt and a two-tier job market), for men (a divisive strand of feminism), for women (ditto, cf trans issues), for immigrants (several scandals about that), for entrepreneurs and freelancers (populist rhetoric against wealth and corporations), for the middle class (tax hikes), for students (our PISA scores are shameful), for the Sahrawis (they abandoned them to appease Morocco), or for truth and science (too many examples to cite).
> _“The only violence i heard of is […] not the catalans”_
There has been very little violence from any side, fortunately. (But lots of hatred.)
The crimes that will be erased now are mostly non-violent ones: rebellion, sedition and misuse of public funds.
> _“An amnesty seems a good idea to keep the peace”_
Roughly half of the population here disagrees. Recent History has proven otherwise: the more that institutions have appeased the separatists and made concessions to them, the more radical and defiant they grew.
> _“Fascists will never keep peace”_
I agree. Those whose crimes will be erased, those who signed the deal with #PedroSánchez, are fascists. As you say, they will never keep peace. For years they have been trying to silence dissenters, banning certain ideas, appealing to nativist ideas, encouraging hatred towards other Spanish regions, attacking minorities and the individual, expecting groupthink, bending the facts and distorting History, and glorifying the idea of a nation.
@tripu Hmm, so the gouvernment that brought you good things for the people (like menstruation is recognized as a reason to not work) is still in pl...
Exactly two days before this year's #InternationalMensDay, the _American Institute for Boys and #Men_ (#AIBM) spearheaded by #RichardReeves is born:
https://ofboysandmen.substack.com/p/birth-announcement-the-american-institute
No tienen ni una pretensión siquiera de poner el interés del país por delante del suyo propio, de pensar en qué es lo mejor para los gobernados. Ni se molestan en fingirlo, ya.
~~Qué ministerios debería haber → quién sería la mejor persona para dirigir cada uno → defender esos nombramientos.~~
Proteger al propio grupo → pensar en uno mismo → debilitar a los demás → asegurarse cargos importantes → acaparar poder, sin importar la cartera o el área.
(No es una crítica exclusiva a este partido.)
I can't find a good summary in English of the events of the last decade or so culminating in yesterday's investiture. Perhaps these two:
* https://www.ft.com/content/bff2ffeb-f17b-421a-acd0-4d3895a0ce6b
* https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/16/pedro-sanchez-wins-second-term-spain-pm-catalan-amnesty-deal
And for an overview of the different perspectives on this:
About the relative quality of Spanish democracy 😄 I know, it's always complex and contingent. I wasn't using any one country as the touchstone of democracy, and I didn't mean to say that _The Economist_ is some kind of oracle. But I like to cite this report and others that, together, put #Spain among the ~15% best countries in the world, just to counter stereotypes about this country being some kind of repressive regime.
> _“With the international press playing a misleading ‘neutral’ role in all of this, when not tacitly acknowledging Catalan independence as a just cause, […] I often feel frustrated when well-intentioned friends of mine outside Spain ask me about the situation here. […] I lament that the picture my friends are forming in their heads is that Barcelona is a new Tiananmen Square and Spain some kind of banana republic, and that the separatists are fighting for basic human rights against an authoritarian state.”_
— your truly, six years ago.
If you're confused or curious about what just happened in #Spain with regards to #Catalonia, [this summary written in 2017](https://tripu.medium.com/referendum-e53331ddf841) might be useful.
Spain is, by the way, arguably [a healthier and most robust democracy than the US, Israel, Belgium, Italy, Portugal or South Korea](https://pages.eiu.com/rs/753-RIQ-438/images/DI-final-version-report.pdf).
tripu
boosted
Technologist, Spaniard, male, 42
Joined May 2020
