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> Ok. Sorry to hear that. However, that is one isolated (albeit very specific) case.
No, its not. As I pointed out aside from this being my expiernce across most of europe I am a data scientist and it is reflected strongly in the data as well.
For example Germany has the lowest wait times in europe and it is 4.8x more common to have a wait time of 2 months or more in Germany than it is in the USA. This is hardly an isolated incident.
> I would say the trend, covering health care systems at large, for larger amounts of cases, shows that the health care in the US is by FAR more costly in the US compared to most other countries
This is an entierly moot point given the scope of the discussion. My assertion was that both the USA and Europe systems suck but in different ways and that neither system is an appropriate solution overall. Therefore arguing ways that the USA sucks does not negate my argument that the european system is horrific and not to be emulated either.
The costs and other concerns about the USA system (there are plenty) are entirely valid in their own right but are not a valid argument to claim the european system is effectual. One system sucking is not an excuse for the other system sucking. The fact that both systems are horrendous is my very point, neither work and we shouldnt be adopting **either** system (remember I recommended an entirely different third option that doesnt resemble either system).
> A thing I’m missing completely in this (very interesting btw) discussion is that there seem to be a perceived binary option between either fully centralised health care, or a fully privatised one.
This is almost my point.. not only is the system not binary (centralized vs private), but its not even a spectrum or a dichotomy. There are literally more than 2 types of systems and more options than a public centralized system, or a privatized system or anything that is inbetween these two.. there are systems that have no qualities of centralization of any kind, and yet are not privatized in any way, these are the systems I promote, and they dont resemble anything in the USA or europe honestly.
Let's not throw around numbers from out of blue. Here you get a fairly detailed and also quite recent OECD paper on waiting times in health care: https://read.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health/waiting-times-for-health-services_242e3c8c-en
Interesting figures are starting [on page 17 onwards](https://read.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health/waiting-times-for-health-services_242e3c8c-en#page17). It's a mixed bag there, but nowhere near "horrible" in Europe. Rather to the contrary.
As for the cost of health care, here are plenty of sources on the fact that effectiveness of expenditures in the US is not exactly stellar.
Some other potentially useful data at OECD reports and DBs. Starting point perhaps here: https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=SHA
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@freemo @FailForward @mathias @lfrffs @ew I understand how poorly run the public healthcare system is. Some people I know worked in healthcare management and they told me how badly managed in ways I must be keeping confidential. But how would a private healthcare system would be better?
Yes, health care is very inefficient, poorly managed, costly, slow, yada yada. We can complain forever (including myself at times).
But let's be clear about some things: relatively minor cost factors aside (e.g, US vs. EU-style systems differences) at the moment, we are living in a world which has the best healthcare in the whole history of humankind. And especially so in the Western world. Today you have to wait with a health condition for a couple of months and it hurts, it is uncomfortable and we suffer and then it's often solved (or not, but such is the nature of the Mother Nature). Absolutely. But 50-70 years ago, your ordeal would be to learn to live till your death with that same condition. And 100+ years ago you would simply die to it before a doctor would see you.
So let's complain about healthcare systems here and there, it's a fun sport for all of us. But wherever you live (and I doubt either of us lives in a developing country - speaking to each other on this platform is already mostly self-selection from affluent places, because we have simply too much time on our hands): would you change for living in a significantly different health-care system? I wouldn't, I am fine where I am. The rest is just money, peanuts, first-world problems... I am grateful for how we are managing it here around.
@FailForward
They werent out of the blue. They were from my research notes a year ago, I can find the data again if needed.
and yea the data you just linked looks pretty horrible to me, it largely agrees with the numbers I stated, surgery wait times are in many cases over a **year** thats absolutely abysmal. Having someone suffering in pain and dealing with a disease for a year longer than they need to is absolutely unacceptable.
When i look at those numbers I dont see anything that comes even close to acceptable.
@mathias @lfrffs @ew @louiscouture