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Humans are unbearable with their little imaginary obsession with "who is at fault"... fault is a construct with almost no relevance.. there is an infinite chain of events leading up to everything that happens and any one of them could have changed the course. All we do is obsess over the one that pisses us off the most like it is somehow special.
@freemo Fault seems pretty relevant, and necessary, to enacting justice.
And we tend to most seek someone to blame... when we face a perceived injustice.
@LouisIngenthron Just is just as much a fabricated fiction as fault. Just a hold over and trick of evolution we evolved to help reinforce our little tribes. It may have served a purpose once, but it is time for that myth to die too.
@LouisIngenthron Just to be clear, I dont mean we dont have court trials or put people in prison, nor am i suggesting a lack of consequences.
What i am suggesting is that at a society jail and court cases and consequences be focused on taking dangerous people off the street to reduce harm and suffering to the population. It isnt because they are at "fault" or because of "justice" it is because we dont want them hurting other people like they have int he past.
Similar the focus at that point is making the person no longer a danger, and once we can have a reasonable amount of confidence in this release them. That means the focus of prison is not punishment but containment and rehabilitation.
@LouisIngenthron Only guilt, not fault... different things.
Guilt is a way of saying that it has been found, beyond a reasonable doubt, you carried out an undesirable action. Guilt focuses on something you did that is wrong, and whether or not you did it.
Fault is a very different thing.. fault is saying that your action is to blame for some effect. It isnt about if you did an act or not, it is about if one of your actions caused some eventuality to happen or not.... this is very different and in truth makes no sense when you think deeply about it.
Perhaps examples might help too:
Guilt: "Bill shot Jeff in the face, it has been proven, he should go to jail"
Fault: "The company failed, it was because Bill said mean words to Jeff that made him sad and then Jeff couldnt go to work and because he was the CEO the company failed and its Bill's fault!"
Very different things I think you'd agree.
@freemo I think your example for "fault" just caused several hundred insurance adjusters to roll over in their graves, lol, and with a more accurate example, your argument wouldn't hold up so well.
Fault and guilt are intrinsically linked. You can be at fault without being guilty, sure, but you can't be guilty without being at fault.
> I think your example for "fault" just caused several hundred insurance adjusters to roll over in their graves, lol, and with a more accurate example, your argument wouldn't hold up so well.
Every example of fault should sound ridiculous. Its just that sometimes when fault and guilt match people think fault has value, when in fact its just the guilt of a bad deed and fault is as fictitious as ever.
> Fault and guilt are intrinsically linked. You can be at fault without being guilty, sure, but you can't be guilty without being at fault.
If you believe int he fantasy of fault, then yea, in that mental framework of course their linked. Guilt says you did a bad actions, fault says your actions caused a bad thing to happen. so for fault to exist you must do a bad act that in turn causes a bad result. Since guilt is any bad act regardless of what results it has, then yes of COURSE you must be guilty of a thing in order for fault to exist.
But two things being intrinsicly links does not mean they are the same thing, or even that one concept has value or meaning compared to the other.
Assuming for a minute fault was meaningful:
I can do a bad act that has no consequences to it. In which case I am guilty but not at fault. For example shooting a gun into the air, its illegal and a bad thing so the act itself makes me guilty. But if no one was hurt then im not at fault for anything. In such a case you should still be locked up because you getting lucky really doesnt even matter or at least shouldnt.
If i had shot someone I would be guilty still but also at fault, ... but of course this is just silly, fault being a fiction and all. Because we could also blame the person who sold me the gun and say that his morally bad act (according to some) is the only reason I had a gun. Some could blame the gun manufacturers. The truth is any event is "caused" by a near infinite chain of previous events. There is no "fault"
@freemo To be clear, I agree it can be taken too far. When laying blame becomes an obsession or a culture, it's a problem.
But, as with almost everything, it's good in moderation.