«Elon Musk, Tucker Carlson, and Donald Trump could not be more different from Neville Chamberlain. They want to abandon Ukraine to the Russians, not because they see the war as none of the West’s business, but because they admire the Russian dictatorship and want a Russian victory.»
#ukraine #elonmusk #russia https://open.substack.com/pub/nickcohen/p/elon-musk-and-the-wests-fascist-fifth?r=qlqfm&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post

@trygvekalland In your opinion, is it conceivably possible for somebody to oppose the Russo-Ukrainian war on the grounds that it's none of the West's business? Or are all opponents of war automatically supporters of Putin?

@genmaicha Sometimes the world is a tough place. When you’re faced with evil, you don’t have the privilege of making it "not your business" or "oppose war" on general grounds, without taking sides. In this case, as in the second world war, not taking sides, is, in practice, supporting the aggressor, because you’re undermining support for the victim. You may feel like you’re anti-war, but you’re actually just callous.

@trygvekalland By that logic, any border dispute should automatically escalate into a world war if everybody is expected to take "the right side". This is the same sort of interventionism that was used to justify war in Iraq, Korea, and Vietnam. I don't care if you think I'm a fascist for wanting to be neutral, and I don't care if you don't think I have the privilege of being neutral. I choose neutrality and wish for a peaceful end to the bloodshed.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=7F9R5gT9DAU

@genmaicha But that’s just your personal fan-fiction of geopolitics. We are nowhere near a world war.

And you may choose neutrality as much as you like, but that means you are in fact supporting continued bloodshed and pillaging of innocent people by a brutal imperialist regime. Yeah, it sucks, but you have to make a stand. Otherwise, Putin will do it on your behalf.

@trygvekalland My original point still stands, despite the fact that you slurred it as "geopolitical fan-fiction". I choose neutrality.

@genmaicha Fortunately, most people have more of a backbone than this, and take a stand for both justice and peace.

@trygvekalland I wish you luck in debating all the other hordes of spineless, traitorous, fan fiction-writing cowards who seem to have taken issue with what you're saying.

@genmaicha @trygvekalland Imagine if we did support Ukraine with military aid and it didn't end in a nuclear fallout, who in their right minds would want to arm the second largest country in Europe and that we know is corrupt? I mean, that's going to end well...

@sim @genmaicha May I remind you that Ukraine is in the same position as most of eastern Europe after the fall of the iron curtain, and that EU and NATO was used effectively to support democratisation and anti-corruption efforts in these countries? The pro-democracy forces in Ukraine has literally chosen to die in the streets and fields to protect these same efforts at home. It’s kind of weird to believe that they won’t succeed where their neighbours did.

@trygvekalland @genmaicha The only people that I feel sorry for are the ordinary citizens that are suffering in this, and that includes all the citizens in the west alongside future generations that are paying for yet another war in Europe, as if the wars elsewhere weren't enough... most likely because of geopolitics and the resources in question here. That is a common theme.

Democracy? I don't recall ever getting to decide whether to join this war or send aid or to accept people in. Or whether to be a part of NATO. Instead I get guilt tripped into it, my country becomes more crowded and poorer for it. But hey, we get to prop up yet another state that treats its own citizens like shit and pretend that it is a democracy and that we are fighting for democracy and freedom. It feels good.

@sim @genmaicha I’m sorry you feel bad, but you’re not really addressing the issue.

@trygvekalland @genmaicha How do you address an issue as complex as this? Sending aid doesn't fix the corruption that started this war, if anything it might even be foreign aid from both Russia and the West that causes countries to destabilise because they have conflicting ideas. Russia wants the oil, the US want the oil... or rather the elites interested in it want it. Not even the threat of nuclear war stops their meddling.

@sim @genmaicha Yeah, I think you’re missing the point. If corruption caused this war, it’s the corruption in the Kremlin, that saw a democratising neighbor threaten their mafia-like tentacles.

Don’t confuse this issue with half-cooked conspiracy theories.

@trygvekalland @genmaicha Do you really think that there isn't corruption on every side? Do you really think that people like Biden's son aren't interested in the oil in the disputed areas? No one comes out looking good in this. Russia is not the only one with elites that invest in and extract resources in other countries. Russia isn't the only country that doesn't let other countries be when they try to go solo, decide their own values or decide to not trade with them. They use the same playbook and give us propaganda.

@sim @genmaicha Again, thinking there's a lot of bad stuff going on, doesn't really justify letting a brutal dictatorship occupy a democratizing neighbour.

@trygvekalland @genmaicha Letting a brutal dictatorship occupy a democratising neighbour doesn't justify letting another superpower swoop in to do the same thing. Have we learned nothing from other wars? Better to create a peace treaty with Russia, to agree to leave Ukraine to be neutral rather than making them more western or Russian. But this is difficult to do while they have resources to covet and we have the propaganda of spreading democracy and freedom all over the globe. Even to people that don't want it.

@sim @genmaicha If you think the US is "doing the same thing” as Russia in this case, there’s no point in having this discussion. That’s either batshit crazy or deeply dishonest.

@trygvekalland @genmaicha Now if only there were an example of the US doing something similar in the past....

"Following the Cuban Revolution of 1959, bilateral relations deteriorated substantially. The US government had the Central Intelligence Agency recruit operatives in Cuba to carry out a violent campaign of terrorism and sabotage on the island, killing civilians and causing economic damage. The CIA also trained and commanded pilots to bomb civilian airfields."

I'm sure the Middle East problems have us covered too. And the elites in the US absolutely have influence and investments all over the place, it is hard to not feel their corruption. Same playbook, different elites. Hell, Putin sees himself as fighting Nazis which is defined slightly different to Russia, fighting some group like this is a common theme as a justification. Funny how oil comes up a lot too.