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"we have objective ways over measuring correlation and we know the order of scale to expect the noise at."
We do not have an objective measure capable of even knowing the typical noise in the system. Completely disagree.
The statistics do favor the existence of these theories. Yes. They do not provide "zero doubt" that we have fully modeled the system accurately to predict what is coming. And, thus far, a number of "predictions" have failed (albeit, because they predictions were journalistic hype, that over state the statistical significance of the data).
I do not disagree with the position that overall, it points to CO2 being a huge issue.
I disagree it's as statistically sound as "no doubt." It's more than likely, but it's at best, still around that 80% fit (just like that graph), even when you dig way, way, way deeper into that data.
lets be clear what we have zero doubt about...
1) We have zero doubt that the CO2 levels in the atmosphere is higher than they have been in the last million years at least.
2) We have zero doubt that the rate at which we are dumping CO2 into the atmosphere is many thousand times faster than has ever occured over any significant period of time in all of history.
3) We have zero doubt that CO2 in the atmosphere will significantly increase overall temperatures and that contribution is predictable.
#3 can be shown not just by looking at historic correlation but you can literally just test it in lab.. fill a jar with CO2 and one with air, stick them under a heat lamp and the one with CO2 will get much much hotter. We know and can calculate how much hotter it will get and can apply that to the atmosphere and get results that agree with the historically measured correlation as well.
There is no doubt of these 3 points to anyone with half a clue.
1 and 2, ok. 3, not so much.
"CO2 in the atmosphere will significantly increase overall temperatures and that contribution is predictable."
First half, yes, will influence.
Second half, "is predictable." That's where I part ways, because the predictions of the past failed to memorialize and were explained away without sufficient .. Anyway.. .I disagree. (to be clear, I disagree about the certainty aspect, not the trends).
And, I guess we could just end there. Because, you can't prove the future based on isolated variables in a jar in a lab. Ecosystem is pretty complex. It's likely to affect central areas of continents, I believe that. But I'm just not seeing 321,003,271 cubic miles of something with a specific heat of 1kcal/(kg K) rise 7 degrees in my lifetime due to CO2 just yet... Possible, yes. Probable, maybe. Zero doubt, not even close.
Again bullshit... We predicted what the average global temperature rise would be given a rise in CO2 and the actual abserved temperatures not just were in the range of the predictions, they were smack dab in the middle of the prediction almost perfectly.
Attached is an image of the temperature rise and CO2 predictions made in 2000 predicting to 2020 and then the actual observed values. They were spot on.
You found one prediction. I've been watching them since the 70s. Your always bound to find one model that fits.
That was not the predictions of the 1960-1990s, nor the doom and gloom of today where we are saying 7 degrees, that started this whole thing.
If anything, that shows that the nonsense in the first article is super exaggerated, because how is that going to make a sharp vertical turn now, based on it's own model.
Half a degree in 20 years, that's what you are showing. 7 degrees in 80 years is what that original journalist artical stated (that's almost 1 degree ever 10 years). Sure, acceleration, but I don't see that kind of curve here.
Scientific journals of note, peer review, all the accreditation in the world, doesn't make these models match. You have just disproved the original "news story" premise to declare victory? WTF?
Yes, looked to quickly. 1.5 over 20. So, x5 is 7. Hmm. so, we are all going to die. You win. I stand corrected. (actually, you are right on this one, I have like 8 things going on, that model does fit the story).
Bring on Cambrian.
BTW, YOU are not the kind of person I'm here for, and I am not a source of truth. My primary function (only reason to be on fedi) is to troll.
But, anyway, yes.. Looks like we all might burn up in a fire ball, I guess. I'm in no position to dispute it (nor do I think I can find proof even if I had access to data). But I still find all the journalistic attempts to cover and explain the issues somewhat pathetic, raising far more questions than providing answers.
Things arent looking great, but we are only doomed if we do nothing to stop green house gases. Huge strides have been made so prediction into the future arent so bleak, it bought us some time thankfully. But if we keep converting over to a greener world, and we are already making huge strides on that, any disaster may very well be averted.
Yea, but history is good at showing us, one unexpected thing changes everything. It's going to be something like a stream of ocean water shot into space to thermal vent, or a big fucking icecube (Futurama joke), not CO2 caps. Crazy shit, just as long as it's not "block out the sun" bullshit, fuck Gates.
the earth is big, so any solution is going to have to be at a global scale and setup long before we are at 0 hour. So sure you might solve the solution by creating some sort of crazy high tech bacteria powered tree that scrub CO2 or whatever scifi solution. But youll still need millions of them (or any solution) around the globe. And frankly, isnt it easier to just plant some trees and use some nuclear/solar/wind/tidal energy and call it a day? Why rely on a hail mary when we already have the means to solve the problem.
For that matter, why hold on to the old polluting ways of doing things at all.. coal is so inefficient, you gotta mine the stuff, and use it in massive quantities.. switch to nuclear or solar or whatever and your talking about 1/100th the effort for the same power.. even if it wasn't cleaner there is no reason not to really.
Also lets not forget fusion is getting really close to being a thing. We are about to bring our first fusion reactor online that will produce usable energy in a year and over the course of the following decade ramp it up to full power as we tweak it. Fusion power is likely only a few decades away from being the norm. While that shouldnt stop us from going green now (as it is viable) that may very well take it to the next level.
it's always been just about to happen and they never deliver 
Depends who you ask.. seems to me their timeline since the first operating tokamaks were build has been relatively predictable and on schedule. A bit of variance as science wasnt even sure if it would work at first, but were at the point where we have pretty good confidence it will and the reactor that can do it is already built and the big bugs proven out. but for almost a decade now its progression has been pretty much on schedule.
Give it a decade and you might just have a chance to use some fusion power.
Solar is already viable.. its just not great at high power, too many panels for too little energy. That wont ever change. But its perfectly viable for lower to medium energy needs.
Solar hasn't explored a lot of tech, honestly. It's like TVs, we had them for decades before we made on flat and lower power. The pn junction efficiency of panels can only be pushed so far (there's a bit more to squeek out, not much). It's going to take a leap, and another technology.
"Solar" as in the panels and converters you know, can be optimized even further, by rooftop. If each roof was covered, it helps (because of transmission losses, it's way better than the stupid "solar farms.") Basically, THAT, "won't ever change." It'll never see like over 40% efficiency or something...
But, that's not the end of the story. That's just one box they label "solar" because of it's wide deployment.
It's a definition of terms issue. And "solar" (as in energy from the sun) is a very viable energy source still, that we haven't even begun to fully harness. So, don't discount the thought that there might be a more efficient technology, possibly within our lifetime. At maybe 25% efficency (they claim, not really even that high), we have a lot of room for improvement. Just, probably not with pn junction stuff... Well, at least not with the commonly used inorganic materials, but bio/organics haven't even been "fully" explored yet for higher efficiency (which could up it, maybe? 10-20% more? Maybe). It'll probably be something totally different (mirrors/heat stuff has been explored, it is in the same ballpark of efficiency, not a quantum leap forward).
until then they're just toys that makes you feel better. (i live in a complex that has solar panels; they don't produce enough.)
@freemo @Genen
We kinda already are.. hard to find many comemrcial rooftops or overhands without them these days
Honestly, I see no reason there shouldn't be a solar panel, microinverter, and battery, on every telephone poll making up for transmission losses if we really gave a shit. (but, I'm in AZ, it's sunny 360 days a year here practically)
some experimental tech existed to make them with lead-silicon nanocrystals which is both cheaper and might have been more efficient, but i don't know what ever happened to them.
in texas the solar panels were mostly put up for tax credits not because they were viable replacements.
@Coyote @Genen @freemo @nanook
silver or no, replacing the entire infrastructure with panels is not the way to go, never way... solar panels are only intended to play part of the role, supplement a percentage of the power.. the rest comes from other types of solar (liquid sodium mirrors), wind, tidal, geothermal, and for whatever is left over, nuclear. You would never want to use just one solution, if you did you'd always have gaps.
Wind and tidal scare me more than the others. I don't like raping the natural bi-products of solar when we don't fully know the consequences yet. I'd honestly rather mine minerals, find lower emissions ways to create even the low efficiency conversion with panels (which I hope improve).
I'll burn coal and be an asshole if they cut my power and I have a way. But, I'd much prefer if we can plan it, we plan something smarter. Fucking tether something at higher altitude with a conductor? I don't know, anything but rape winds and tides. The early studies of the tidal power generation I remember were disastrous on our already horrible ecosystem, and I like eating fish, don't want to ruin that part of the world either.
However, maybe deep water thermal, would be bad ass.
The transmission problem is a big one, Tesla was right about that. On site generation of power may be a better answer though, rather than trying to transmit it with lower losses.
What could possibly scare you about wind or tidal? They arent perfect and I can think of maybe some concerns with wind and killing birds, which isnt a huge problem but its not non existant... but otherwise i cant image how they would cause any major issue. Countries that use it arent seeing any problems either.
@Coyote @nanook @Atlas_Khan @Genen
I mean sure, but putting a single building up will block more wind than a windturbine would.. We have been reducing the kinetic energy in the wind since forever and it hasnt really had much consequences.
Tidal energy it little mroe than a barrel floating on the top of the ocean, you'd never extract enough energy from that to make more than a small blip of a percentage of a difference.
"I mean sure, but putting a single building up will block more wind than a windturbine would"
I didn't say skyscrapers were eco friendly now did I. Did you COMPLETELY mistake me for TOTAL libertarian? I don't #TrustTheScience because I believe in science.
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Thats for everyone keeping it respectful and interesting.
PS: PLEASE, no one tell my wife that shit can be converted to real money... k? Please?
Thank you. :-) Someday, maybe my bullshit will cover my node rent... $5 a month droplet.. LOL! Meanwhile.. Scored a small victory today. Seems I'm, as of this very week, in a T-mobile "home internet" zone. MAYBE, just MAYBE, this week, within a few days even, I will be back able to download more than 1 PDF every 5 minutes, and be able to pick up some more side work, and turm this fucking trainwreck around with a mixed metaphore non sequitre reply...
I appreciate you, very much, as well. For being .. you.
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