#WestJet did receive a whopping $700,000 from Premier Ford for their pandemic losses. That amount was the maximum grant allowable under the taxpayer-funded Ontario Tourism Recovery Program designed to compensate the tourism industry.
It might be worth noting that WestJet's CEO is also anti-vax & anti-mask.
🇳🇱
Anti-mandate is **not** anti-mask or anti-vax.
I know nothing about this guy and maybe he is all those things. But him blasting the feds for mandates does NOT automatically mean he is against masks or vaccines.
@freemo @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
In the past year we have clearly seen that if you do not mandate masks on planes, the majority will not wear them. These are often the people who never wear masks and are therefore more likely to be infected.
Masks prevent the virus getting into the air that others must breathe. Masks are much more effective as source control (i.e., the infected person wears them) than as protection (although fit-tested N95s provide quite some protection).
@ABScientist @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
> In the past year we have clearly seen that if you do not mandate masks on planes, the majority will not wear them. These are often the people who never wear masks and are therefore more likely to be infected.
Thats probably true sure.
> Masks prevent the virus getting into the air that others must breathe. Masks are much more effective as source control (i.e., the infected person wears them) than as protection (although fit-tested N95s provide quite some protection).
The effectiveness of masks is debatable, but for the purpose of this thread lets assume what you said is true... ok. Doesnt make what I said any less true. Even if mask/vax mandates are reasonable and a good idea to support them... being against mandates is **not** the same as being against masks or vaccines.
@freemo @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
In practice it might be best to have flights with or without a mask mandate.
People who do not want to wear a mask can then book the flight without masks.
People who rather not want to get ill, can book the flight with a mandate.
@freemo @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
Before Covid the protection from respirators (N95/KN95/FFP2/FFP3) against bacterial and viral infections has never been a debate.
For example, against Tuberculosis, these respirators provide good protection, while surgical masks provide much less protection.
Mask mandates may be less effective than masks themselves, because people get so much misinformation about masks not working, that they do not wear them consistently.
@freemo @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
And it is true that masks never provide 100% protection.
But neither do helmets, seat belts and fire dectors. Did we decide to stop using those? Helmets and seat belts are rather uncomfortable.
How did we get to a "you do you" approach for masks (while this also means that people are a danger to everyone around them), but we would never imagine this approach to helmets and seat belts (not wearing them mostly harms the person themselves)?
@freemo @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
The only reason I can think of is that there are people with influence who think that if people wear masks, this will mean less income generated.
It could be the entertainment industry, the hospitality industry, and maybe retail?
(Although you will hardly see me in shops these days: For everything I compare the risk of getting long Covid versus the benefit of the thing I want to buy - you are surprised about how little you actually need).
@ABScientist @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
> Mask mandates may be less effective than masks themselves, because people get so much misinformation about masks not working, that they do not wear them consistently.
Sadly you get misinformation from both sides. Those who promote masks try and sell it as this wonderfully effected and trusted solution, when the reality is we have very little good evidence showing just how effective it is at all. There are valid arguments that when used by the general problic they could even make matters worse... Then you have guys on the otherwise who will swear up and down the evidence cocnlusively shows masks are useless... When the misinformation is constantly from **both** sides, that is the problem, more so than just misinformation out there. At least if one side was objectively honest about it then people could all go to that side and get informed. Instead thats not what we have.
> The only reason I can think of is that there are people with influence who think that if people wear masks, this will mean less income generated.
Nah, its likely people just realizing they dont want to live their life walking around in low-grade hazmat gear over a disease that posses real, but managable risk that is not going to go away. Most of us simply see the mask as hypochondria levels and not healthy in multiple ways and are done with it.
@freemo @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
Did you look at the paper that I attached?
Or are you only working from your own ideas and perceptions?
@ABScientist @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
Read the article quite some time back and am familiar with it. I am a research scientist working on COVID-19 for more than 2 years now. Being at the core of a lot of these debates as well so you'd be hard pressed to find a relelvant study i havent seen before relating to the common sort of debate questions.
@freemo @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
Could you then outline what the authors of this paper are doing wrong when they claim that respirators protect against airborne diseases?
If you are the expert, it should be easy to point out the flaws in the paper.
@ABScientist @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
Yup, it sure would be... and luckily I dont even need to spend the time to reread it and write up a detailed analysis for you, because I already did that in my timeline quite some time back when I discussed this and a few other papers point by point... Feel free to search my TL for it, ill be happy to look for it if you cant find it and link it to you when i get back to my computer.
@freemo @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
Data scientist and expert in statistics.
I don't see much about Covid and the physics of respirators on your webpage?
@ABScientist @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
You'd have to look on my resume. Not sure it has much of the detail in it but it should at least list my last two years running the science team at a COVID 19 research lab (Was in charge of the chemistry department, the clinical, and the Data scientists)
@ABScientist @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
> Why hasn't this system gone into production? Or is it only available for the super rich?
Because the owner is corrupt and it looks like the mob is involved. I quit in protest recently and reported them to the Israel govt as part of my resignation.
Before I got there they werent able to solve the problem. They never got out of the 70's in terms of accuracy percentage.
When I was hired I got it into the 90%+ range and finally gave them a path to sell something. But thats when I discovered crooked shit financially, called them out on it and left the company. Now they are stuggling to pick up the pieces as they have no employees left and some criminal charges to answer for.
> The only reason why I need respirators is that people are spreading virus everywhere (while they could be wearing theirs and keep the virus to themselves).
I mean yea, no arguing that everyone else wearing a mask might mean you wont need yourself... but its not reasonable to expect everyone in the world to wear low-grade hazmat equipment to appease you, thats the problem... most of them would rather be comfortable and its not worth the trade.
@freemo @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
So people are actively blocking this possible solution to the pandemic?
Some people must be making lots of money of keeping people getting infected and becoming disabled.
@ABScientist @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
> So people are actively blocking this possible solution to the pandemic?
No, it isnt a solution to the pandemic, even if it is effective at reducing transmission.. for a few reasons.
You wear it virus wont go away. Yes if everyone is very careful to handle their masks and wear them with medical level precision then it will prevent the spread... but its not a solution because the second you take your masks off and go back to living life normally then the virus will be back and the spike will be much worse at first as it re-spreads (several reasons for this mostly specific to the nature of this virus).
So what you are really looking at isnt a solution, its a trade off... Would people rather have background levels of COVID forever, but be able to live a normal life. Or would you rather have relatively lower levels of COVID and much lower risk, but now have to live the rest of your life, and everyone elses, in low-grade hazmat where a resperator.
Most of us decided the risks of COVID are preferable to low-level hazmat gear for the rest of our lives. I still say that trade is one im happy to take.
> Some people must be making lots of money of keeping people getting infected and becoming disabled.
Yes, and they would make that money if we wore masks or not, because masks arent going to eliminate COVID anyway.. in fact if this were true the rich would be promoting masks right now.. it wont eliminate covid, but it will give them a new thing to sell. Then when people stop wearing masks again and covid re-spikes before normalizing all those extra sick people they can benefit off of too.
@freemo @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
The level of disability that this virus causes is simply not sustainable.
We need some way of controlling it's spread. Testing can be one (and acting upon it), sterilizing vaccines, good quality masks, indoor air quality.
These are the numbers for the UK labour market.
Lot's of people dropping out due to poor health.
I certainly agree with you that the virus is concerning and we need to try to address it.
Better vaccines are desperately required for sure. Good habits like washing your hands, encouraging stores to have better ventilation, all good ideas.
Masks are a bit of a mixed bag though... so many concerns with masks:
1) Mishandling by the general public may cause an increase in spreading of the disease rather than the intended effect of attenuating it (no evidence for this either way but its a reasonable concern given the mishandling of masks that is common)
2) They are extremely uncomfortable for many people physically. That alone strongly discourages many from using it.
3) They are very harmful to the deaf community who rely strongly on lip reading to function. Since the deaf often need to hear people who arent directly talking to them it isnt easily solved by simply asking people to take down this mask. Clear masks are rarely used and fog so much as to be in effective
4) Many who wear glasses their glasses can fog, sometimes unexpectidly if there is a semi ok seal.. This can be dangerous at worse.
5) Studies have already shown (and it is easily confirmed) that CO2 levels inside a mask exceed the OSHA acceptable long-term CO2 exposure limits... While they are ok for short periods it is considered harmful to wear for most of the day constantly day in and day out
6) Just the psychological aspect. Its just not a healthy way to live for a virus that is going to be here forever. I know I have no interest in geating up in low-grade hazmat for the rest of my life and live in fear.
@freemo @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
We are almost four years into this pandemic. Why haven't better masks been developed? Masks that do not fog up? Masks that are more comfortable? Masks that can be reused? Masks that you can see through?
Repeated infection with Covid will lead to disability at some point (and it will likely be within 5 years for most).
I looked up the source of the UK numbers. This is the link:
@freemo @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
I agree that no mask is preferred to wearing a mask.
But there is virus everywhere. A virus that disables people at an alarming rate.
I would also rather not take a vaccine, but there is a disabling virus everywhere.
I would also rather not think about the virus. But it is everywhere and will likely disable me if I simply ignore it.
> ...will likely disable me if I simply ignore it.
Well for starters it isnt "likely" to disable you.. the odds are against that. There is about a 1 in 4 chance that over a **lifetime** of getting covid infections you will wind up with some sort of long-term damage.... thats 25% over a lifetime. And this is from very weak new studies coming out, so its far from being fact at this point, it is at best a possible truth that needs more investigation.
So while that number is still high enough to be concerning, lets be clear, it is not "likely" at all you will get disabled,.
Also while there may be a 25% chance of some sort of permanent injury over a lifetime, that doesn't mean its an injury that will be significant either, or even notice. very much. Of course it might be much more significant too.. But lets be clear it could very well be quite insignificant just as it might be quite harmful...
> I agree that no mask is preferred to wearing a mask.
>
> But there is virus everywhere. A virus that disables people at an alarming rate.
A mask, specifically a resperator if you really want it to be effective. Is this huge bulky thing with stagnant ugly air you breath and straps around your head and is uncomfortable... something you plan to do for 8+ hours a day for an entire lifetime
> I would also rather not take a vaccine, but there is a disabling virus everywhere.
Sure but that is a one time stab.. its 30 minutes out of your life, and lasts a long time.. The trade is a far better deal. You get better protection for a mask, the protection lasts a long time, and instead of being inconvenienced for 8+ hours a day for the rest of your life you are inconvenienced for 30 minutes for a life time of benefits.
These two risk reward equations arent really comparable to me at all.
@freemo @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
But who says you wear the mask for 8 hours per day?
Of course you also try to stay away from other people, so that you can take off the mask most of the time.
Well you didnt suggest quarintine or lockdowns so I assume people are still out and about. Your average person spends at least 8 hours a day around people.
If you are suggesting we dont just wear masks the rest of our lives but also minimize human contact as well this is looking like worse and worse advise I'd strongly be against. We are better off dealing with the disease than locking ourselves away forever.
@ABScientist @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
> We are almost four years into this pandemic. Why haven't better masks been developed? Masks that do not fog up? Masks that are more comfortable? Masks that can be reused? Masks that you can see through?
There were quite a few innovations in masks, including clear ones.. The thing is, people stopped using masks because they dont want something covering their face. I dont think you can take away the fact that im going to have something uncomfortable covering me. Im also not sure if you understand just how uncomfortable it is for many people to wear one.
Even if you added in all those special features I doubt people would be any more willing to wear masks for the rest of their lives.
> Repeated infection with Covid will lead to disability at some point (and it will likely be within 5 years for most).
Thats debatable.In all liklihood the risk of long-term injury is less for every subsequent case such that while your overall chance of a disability is going up slightly it is effectively acting logarithmic. So the risk isnt as high as it might seem.
Obviously the data is scarce so I am mostly speculating here based off the limited data.
To give you an idea I've been verified as having covid 7 times now and have yet to have any serious complications. If you were to believe some of the numbers people are throwing around that would be statistically impossible :)
@freemo @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
It would be good if we would get more reliable data about repeated Covid infections.
Some people get disabled at their first infection, some people are now at their 6th of 7th infection without any obvious health complaints.
Are there people who are immune to the long term effects of Covid? Do they have specific genes or a specific lifestyle that protects them?
If genes, it would split society even more into vulnerable and non-vulnerable.
@freemo @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
We know that women are disproportionally affected by PASC.
So the 10% that is often used, might actually be more like 15% for women and 5% for me.
With 5% is it actually not implausible to have 7 infections and no PASC (assuming each infection has a 5% independent risk).
@freemo @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
I just noticed this Reddit about point (1).
In the beginning of the pandemic touching the outside of the mask was a concern, because there was still a belief that Covid transmits through fomites. Now it is clear that it mostly airborne.
There were also arguments that people may not keep their 6ft distance because of the masks. Now we know that even touching is not an issue, as long as you do not breathe in each other's air.
@freemo @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
For (4). There are anti-fogging sprays.
https://www.specsavers.co.uk/glasses/buyers-guide/stop-glasses-fogging-with-face-mask
(5) The levels of additional CO2 in the mask you also get by being in a way too crowded indoor space with poor ventilation (and everyone is fine with that).
(3) I have no one in my life who is lip reading, so that is not an argument for me.
I think people's main arguments are (2) and (6). That's why they also dislike my mask, even though it should only be uncomfortable to me.
@ABScientist @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
> For (4). There are anti-fogging sprays.
Tried them many times. They dont work, when they do they only work for a short time. Plus over time they ruin your lenses so that 500$ on lenses you spent on your glasses get ruined after a short time.
That said if you have glass lenses these probably work way better. But on plastic not so much.
> The levels of additional CO2 in the mask you also get by being in a way too crowded indoor space with poor ventilation (and everyone is fine with that).
In a crowded indoor space with no mask on and no windows open such as an office place you will see at most a peak in rare circumstances of 1400 ppm. Compare this to a crowded office space with just a few windows open but no active ventilation which will have closer to 700 ppm,
Mask wearers on the other hand see CO2 levels of about 2500 ppm while resperator wearers can see ppm levels as high as 4000 ppm.
For comparison the OSHA **short** term limit on CO2 exposure is 1000 ppm. So even short term use of masks exceeds the minimal threshold, but resperators are getting you well over the minimum level by 4x.
> (3) I have no one in my life who is lip reading, so that is not an argument for me.
That is horrific logic... first off they dont have to be in your life for them to be effected. You interact with people every day and you wont know which are deaf and which arent from a brief interaction.
> In the beginning of the pandemic touching the outside of the mask was a concern, because there was still a belief that Covid transmits through fomites. Now it is clear that it mostly airborne.
The issue with improper use of a mask and thus spreading the virus more is not about fomites. You have an active ideal moist breeding ground in a mask that isnt just perfect for keeping COVID alive but also all sorts of other diseases that can be just as bad or even worse. When you use the same mask for more than the recommended few hours (same for resperators) you may be putting yourself and others at risk by literally having a covid and bacterial soup sitting on your mouth that you are ejecting into the air every time you breath. Most studies only look at proper use of masks, which doesnt represent the bulk of how masks are used.
> There were also arguments that people may not keep their 6ft distance because of the masks. Now we know that even touching is not an issue, as long as you do not breathe in each other's air.
The closer you are the easier it is to breath on someone. This becomes compounded if your wearing a mask instead of a resperator which is known to be far less good at creating seals.
@freemo @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
I guess that leaves no other option than to isolate from people or play the Long Covid Roulette.
These are great times to be alive.
What will kill us first? A virus? A bacterial infection after the virus has weakened our immune system? Or something related to climate change? Maybe food shortages if you survive all of that?
The way I see it the "long covid roulette" is really just what we are stuck with now, its life. So yea I'd say we just need to accept it and move on with our lives.
That said we can do things, its just not as individuals so much. Better vaccines and better treatments are ultimately where our time and money should go.
Luckily without quarintine and mask mandates our economy can function well enough to support continued research into vaccines and maybe fix the problem at some point in the future.
@freemo @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
I hope the economy can also handle the numbers of people that can no longer go out because of long Covid and of people no longer going out because they do not want long Covid. I guess that will be compensated for by people looking for treatments for their conditions?
Well it may not be ideal for the economy, but a small percentage sick and out of work is going to be hugely better for the economy than everyone quarintined of course.... So yea will at least give our economy the best chance to find a real solution.
@freemo @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63
I think I have found it.
Why hasn't this system gone into production? Or is it only available for the super rich?
The only reason why I need respirators is that people are spreading virus everywhere (while they could be wearing theirs and keep the virus to themselves).