@Coyote
No, I lived and studied in India, no way that stuff can be taught in third grade.

The article you linked is not related to the third statement. Moreover, one single teacher teaching one thing doesn't make it what Americans generally learn.

@Coyote
Do you really not study maths in third grade in America?

Hey I'm not saying American schools are good; we always make fun of Americans because you have difficulties understanding the most basic concepts and you have no real broad culture.
Still, I thought you knew maths.

@rastinza

"Do you really not study maths in third grade in America?"

Your questions are extremist, and ask that every example be true for all, and it simply is not the case. I have had friend who grew up in India, in wealthy families, with tutors, who I met while traveling, and I have a hard time believing they were not taught any science by 3rd grade, I just don't buy it. But you went to an extreme on that one, claiming your expert at 3rd grade education in India.


I will do no such thing. There may well be "some math" taught to "some kids" in America.

I haven't been in 3rd grade in a long time, However, add 9 years, 12th grade (high school senior) and... it's looking kinda grim. I have taught many college kids science over the years, and I can say the hardest part was somehow they would make it to College freshman or sophomores, and couldn't do multiplication of fractions, and instead of teaching science, you end up trying to teach them basic math.

I'll let you "do the math" on what you would figure out they would need to reach this "complete education" standard between the 3rd and 12th year:

There is no national standard in the US, it's up to the states. Basic logic and reasoning (topics like types of fallacy) had been removed from schools in the US dating back to the 1990s as far as I know, at which time it was an elective philosophy class in college only. By "graduation" (around 18 years old), in AZ, for example, you are very low, specifically:

"Mathematics (1) Three credits containing course content in preparation for proficiency at the high school level on the statewide assessment and aligned to the Arizona Mathematics Standards for Algebra I, Geometry, and Algebra II. These three credits shall be taken beginning with the ninth grade unless a student meets these requirements prior to the ninth grade. (2) The requirement for the third credit covering Algebra II, may be met by, but is not limited to the following: a math course comparable to Algebra II course content; computer science, career and technical education and vocational education, economics, science and arts courses as determined by the local school district governing board or charter school. (3) The mathematics requirements may be modified for students using a Personal Curriculum."

https://www.azed.gov/adeinfo/hsgrad

Note, that (3) says, "unless we decide you don't need it" is invoked changing it to "Meh, if you can't pass Algebra II, we'll figure something else out" R7-2-302.03

And for those that can't do that, they are then offered a chance to obtain a GED, which is a multiple choice test that contains some basic math (example question attached). https://ged.com/en/curriculum/math/

@Coyote @rastinza

>I haven't been in 3rd grade in a long time, However, add 9 years, 12th grade (high school senior) and... it's looking kinda grim. I have taught many college kids science over the years, and I can say the hardest part was somehow they would make it to College freshman or sophomores, and couldn't do multiplication of fractions, and instead of teaching science, you end up trying to teach them basic math.

And even then, most of them need to use a calculator with an "=" sign. Tell them to write out the problem on a whiteboard/blackboard and solve it without using a calculator and they just freeze.

Frankly, all calculators should be banned from K-12 schooling, and all non-RPN calculators banned from academia, period.

@LoliHat @Coyote @rastinza people can't fail out of school if they're at least doing something. if they do it shit, they just get put in retard classes and 'pass' with the same high school degree. they'll make it to higher education knowing jack shit as a result.
i'm willing to estimate 80% of a high school's student body is comprised of these people who are incapable of doing math or critical thinking as a result of school very poorly teaching it to them. 'honors' classes are ones that most people would assume are the baseline of education, but its treated as the cream of the crop.

@kyuubi @LoliHat @Coyote @rastinza
I had friends who passed high school despite:

-Skipping over half of senior year because he had a "disorder" that the school accepted, and just let him turn in homework without going to class (A average)

-Skipping over half of senior year with no excuse (C average)

-Not turning in a single assignment senior year until the last week, then turning in a bunch of sheets of paper filled with random scribbles which the teachers counted as his assignments (B average)

-Not turning in a single assignment senior year at all (D average)

High school is a joke. All of these guys were honestly above average intelligence-wise as well, they just realized that they could easily game the system and still pass. Even I only turned in about 1/3 of the required homework junior and senior year, but my teachers graded all my homework as 100% as long as I aced every test and I graduated with like a 4.1 GPA due to AP classes. If you don't care about grades and just want to pass you could literally do nothing for 4 years and pass with Ds.

@weissrespecter @kyuubi @Coyote @rastinza

It's sadly more common than you think.

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/baltimore-city-student-graduates-without-learning-read-patterson-high-school-project-baltimore-debora-prestileo

@LoliHat @Coyote @kyuubi @rastinza >I never learned to read and this is the school's fault
I'm pretty sure most people learn to read before they ever start school in the first place, where were your parents? :gura_dum:

@weissrespecter @LoliHat @Coyote @rastinza i think the problem is more that people who are illiterate and have no good excuse to be illiterate are somehow passing school. reading is the bare minimum to practically any education, so they somehow aren't getting taught anything or taking any tests and are still passing.
these people are going to school for fucking YEARS, being exposed to the written word constantly, and are still incapable of reading.
i don't know the exact statistic but i remember seeing that the US's literacy rates are dropping. this is not a good thing, and logically shouldn't be happening.

@kyuubi @weissrespecter @Coyote @rastinza

They want all children to be smart and educated, but rather than admit that there is a Gaussian distribution of IQ in the population, they dumb everything down so that everyone passes and then declare victory.

@kyuubi @rastinza @LoliHat @weissrespecter I know that happens, I have met these kids, I could say EXACTLY how this happens, but, basically, mom lives on welfare, no father, they learn, do as little as possible, and you get by, and once a year you get a new iPhone or whatever... There's no incentive to finish school, they might as well go directly to taking orders for burgers... I'm not saying bring back child labor, I'm saying, all we got is daycare here, schools in the US have NOT been forming productive members of society STARTING 50 years ago or more, it's almost hopeless now, the "teachers" are idiots. And they want more pay, and LOWER standards? Something as fundamental as requiring basic fallacy spotting to GET IN to high school or something here, Hold some kids back if they are getting stupid, don't lower the standard, it's destroying society..

@weissrespecter @Coyote @kyuubi @rastinza

No, most kids don't learn squat from their parents because parents have been told that it's the schools job to teach their kids, especially with schooling starting at younger and younger ages. First they added Kindergarten, then Pre-school, and now they are targeting even younger so they can indoctrinate the kids before the parents even have a chance even if they were inclined to do so.

At most a kid might get ahead by watching Sesame Street.

@weissrespecter @rastinza @Coyote @LoliHat @kyuubi >Where were your parents?
Considering that it's Baltimore. There's a 90% chance the person is a nigger and the person's father was absentee and the mother too busy/stupid/neglectful to help.

@LoliHat @rastinza @Coyote @kyuubi @weissrespecter Will the education system be sued for fraud ?

@The_Marketsurfer @rastinza @Coyote @kyuubi @weissrespecter

No. Qualified immunity.

@kyuubi @rastinza @LoliHat

EXACTLY.

I support paying teachers, police, politicians more. Generally.

However, teachers, police, and politicians are incompetent, and not worthy of they pay they receive now, is also true.

Multipart equation that is solved by identifying what factor is missing.

Meritocracy is missing. Meritocracy has been "regulated away" by corrupt bureaucracy. It's really that simple.

Regulations:

We need to let this 87 pound minority woman on the police force.

You can have a PhD in Math, Chemistry, Physics, and Biology, but you are NOT qualified to teach children in public schools. However, someone with a degree in "education" may teach all of those topics.

Politicians, really, I don't have all day, show me line item voting on all legislation, so we can grade their performance.

Logic was removed, so that meritocracy could be removed, because it was impeding the success of inherent corruption, which they demanded, through regulations.

Should teachers be paid more? HELL YEA. Should we pay the teachers we have now more? HELL NO, 90% of them are already broken themself by their own system.

@Coyote @rastinza @kyuubi

>You can have a PhD in Math, Chemistry, Physics, and Biology, but you are NOT qualified to teach children in public schools. However, someone with a degree in "education" may teach all of those topics.

The problem lies in the pedagogy they indoctrinate teachers with in M.Ed. and Ed.D. degree programs.

@LoliHat @Coyote @rastinza I think the worst part of this is that I tried solving these questions as best as I could without a calculator as much as possible but still couldn't burn it into my brain because my teachers would 9/10 use a calculator or realize none of could do math for shit

@luithe @Coyote @rastinza For me, calculators were forbidden and I was forced to show all work with every step written out longhand. It's also a good habit to get into when you get into STEM. It's easy to mistype something into a calculator or miss something you don't understand if you don't reflexively lay everything out with a pen/pencil and paper.

@LoliHat @rastinza @luithe I hate the idea they created something called "STEM" because they just tried to box up some broadly mis-fit pockets of science, based on what they could get corporations to fund promos and shit for, saying they are educating the new workforce. And, they are, next generation of slaves, know some science. It's science-light, Technology is blurred in across the hard sciences to the extrapolated engineering parts. I really am for teaching the hard sciences, and math, before pushing technology, the motivation to learn the technology part is almost self induced now, you can't avoid learning SOME technology by just being in society. Sorry, tangent, but Logic > Math > GenChem > GenPhysics > GenBio > Geology > Astronomy > THEN go Engineering > Technology.... They build on one another better to compress relevant topics for overlap that way even. Just... More people can fix there own iphone than grow their own food, need to be a bit more fundamental and learning may occur more naturally? Whole thing is a mess.

@Coyote
> I'm sure China is teaching math by 3rd grade
> I'm sure India is teaching about science in 3rd grade

You implied that maths and science is not taught in the US.
I just thought this isn't true, I would imagine it is.

@rastinza

"Hey I'm not saying American schools are good; we always make fun of Americans because you have difficulties understanding the most basic concepts and you have no real broad culture."

Agree on your first part (see image).

Disagree on second part, the US chief export is still culture. Have you heard of Disneyland? Hollywood? MGM? Warner Brothers? CNN? I will assure you, culture is the one thing we have dominated (sadly, and wrongly) for many, many decades. If you asked people around the world, "name 3 famous people" from as many countries as you can, I'm pretty sure the US would be one of the easiest countries to answer about, no matter where you live in the world.

@rastinza I have given A Rulebook for Arguments by Anthony Weston to my friends children in grade school, and found they light up, read, use, and understand basic logic, THEN become better at math. But this type of information (logic and reasoning) is not required to "complete an adult level education" in the US. This is reduced to an unpopular optional college level topic. "Teachers" do not like children to challenge authoritarian doctrine, and arming children with "logic" would undermine the indoctrination system because incompetence levels of "teachers" will quickly be relieved... That pretty sums up why we are a nation of sheeple, IMHO. "Education" in the US is a corrupt empire of child abuse, when you realize they are intentionally disabling children's logic skills.

@Coyote @rastinza

> ability to tell fact from fiction being taught in US schools

the evangelicals would never allow this as the first thing to go would be belief in god, which is one of the original sins of american culture, along with slavery

@jeffcliff @Coyote @rastinza I was taught this in public school

@jeffcliff @Coyote @rastinza fat jabbed assmuncher doesn't believe in god many such cases sad

@jeffcliff @rastinza That is part of it, yes, agreed, the "science is just a theory" idiots that don't comprehend "strength" of theories. However, they are a fringe "right" minority, but somehow the pendulum swung to far to the left extremist groups with CRT and transsexualism being taught instead, which I don't believe the majority of the left really supports either.

@Coyote
Kuhn would agree with them.
@jeffcliff

@rastinza @jeffcliff

Thomas Kuhn, the taxonomic structure of scientific kind terms? Yes, very much, language devolved a bit, and detached logic and math and a clear intersect and how to teach that we can find some fundamental truths, collectively, very quickly, if we could ever learn how to teach math and logic better, and... then we went the total opposite direction, and now we got this shit show we live in.

Thought you meant Kahn for a minute... Because, meritocracy was a relevant topic here as well.

@jeffcliff @Coyote @rastinza Ok c*nadian no one asked

@Coyote @rastinza

American public schools have been on a decline since the days of John Dewey, and it's only accelerated exponentially as of late.

@Coyote
I'm not saying there is no culture coming from the US, the people themselves don't have a culture.
The average American person you meet knows barely something about history, geography, literature, philosophy and so on.

Btw the US is not the country I know most famous people from, despite the huge filmography.

@rastinza Yes, the average American has never left their own country, and geographically isolated from other cultures, excluding Mexico, which there is a language barrier, because we're two stupid to teach kids a second language... And then consider learning Spanish "beneath us" collectively in silent arrogance. Thing is, if you don't want to have trouble with your neighbor, at some point one of the two of you needs to learn a second language, and MEXICO is doing better at that than we are, so, go figure...