I don't even think it's that.
The place needs a culture other than "we are fleeing from other places."
It's like early Reddit, lotta nerds and dropouts, dissidents and hermits, but there is no clear idea of how people should interact so it becomes scrolling through lots of tangentially-related activity.
@amerika @zleap @thor The beauty here is that it's like a real life social gathering, say a party or a pub. You wander around, until you find people you think are interesting. They might like you, they might not. The conversation might turn to something you dislike, but you can just wander off and talk to other people. No feed algorithm will keep on shoving more people who sound like the ones you briefly met, into your face.
It can be hard to find friends, but it's easy to avoid the worst.
The fediverse when it was smaller appealed to people like me that saw what was wrong with places like twitter... then mastodon came and brought that twitter culture with them. Except they wanted a place without nazis, something they had more control over. Hence you see things like block lists and people being more block happy. Perhaps the problem is that social media doesn't scale well. You don't want huge popularity, but rather smaller communities with culture in them. When I first came here, I thought that bringing more people here would solve everything. Other people agreed back then, wanting to spread free software to everyone. It has only made the problems worse on here. I have felt less happy/healthy for it. I don't think I am alone in this. I don't know if it can be solved. It may just be a people problem.
I think there is an advantage to havcing self hosted, small instances for a few people, family or small community who just want to connect with each other.
I have said before, more people brings more positive interaction but also negative interaction. I think that is a people problem.
Yeah, I think we are suffering from the people problem. People bringing their usual baggage and attitudes with them here rather than adapting to idea of community here.
As far as I can tell, the free software community kills everything it touches.
Too much posing. "If you want software to actually work, jUsT wRiTe yOuR oWn."
It's not much different than any other volunteer field in this regard...
Ego always comes first with humanity.
To have a community, you need a function, not just preaching.
The Fedi has the same problem the far-Right does: nothing to discuss but a single topic.
I don't think fork your own is a good response for a lot of people. It works well if you are a dev and know what you are doing. But not for the average person. I think there are attempts to make things more accessible though. This seems to be more the attitude for pleroma.
I can't argue with the single topic. The fediverse and its values are the uniting factor for the culture. But this doesn't necessarily lend itself to something more, like you'd hopefully get in community. If you don't care about that, and now a lot of people don't here, then you are left to wander and treat the fediverse just like you would twitter. I don't think things were introduced well, and it doesn't help to have certain devs treating their software like their babies to do with as they please rather than focusing on the fediverse community.
Fedi reminds me most of Gettr.
Small groups have formed and participate in "trains," or posting lists of other users to follow.
But no one interacts much except with people who are already big celebrities from somewhere else.
On Fedi, it seems as if most traffic is bot-generated, basically people posting updates for others to ignore.
This emphasizes the clannishness of nodes.
@The_Quantum_Alpha @brian @thor @zleap @sim
I think this is why Twitter et al persist and the fediverse is generally in denial of this.
It's the challenge.
The real big challenges are usually hidden behind near-universal denial.
So the question is, how do we build a culture that encourages interaction instead of apathetic tolerance?
I think that at least two things apply here, there are likely more people on twitter but we don't know how much of that is genuine and then twitter has an algorithm which the fediverse doesn't have that pushes interactions. So what you get on the fediverse is probably just more genuine.
It's less denial for me and more that I don't see what the problem is, but that is probably just because I prefer few interactions. But then I wasn't getting a lot of interaction on twitter because I wasn't popular anyway. A lot of that is discoverability and posting what people like. Usually images work better.
I also think that people just give up on the fediverse so quickly. They think it is dead here and find somewhere else to post. But it needs people being more active, you have to go out and find content to interact with and other people need to do the same. We also don't get to see everything when looking at remote instances.
Personally, the thing that made me feel more encouraged to post is being able to see peoples replies so that I can join part way through the thread or discover it part way through. This is a great feature. But most people here are boring for me for lack of a better word, I have nothing to contribute to their threads or the topics don't interest me. It's likely people here feel the same about my posts. It's hard to get over that.
@sim @The_Quantum_Alpha @brian @thor @zleap
Right, well, there's not a sense of community...
USENET had a sense of community. We had our own hives, for sure, but there was crossover and it was considered good that people were heavily invested in whatever interested them.
This place is defined too much by what it is not -- not commercial software, not big tech, not centralized -- and not enough by what it *is*, or can be.
I would say that the same applies here. We have our own instances and people that we like to interact with, people are free to be heavily invested in what interests them. It's just not necessarily going to translate well that many others will share interest in that or be aware of it. But then things are still a work in progress, I think there is still work going on for projects like groups to be implemented right. Gab can do a lot of things because they don't care about the rest of the fediverse and being compatible. Or not fucking up.
I would at least say that decentralisation is a positive thing itself. It just has its own drawbacks too. But it does allow you to move about the fediverse more freely, you aren't tied to just one instance. People are encouraged to make accounts elsewhere, to make their own instance or join one already made. Seeing replies encourages more interaction to a thread, and you can see this working because if people only saw the first post then things would not only seem more dead but you'd lose out on people joining threads partway through. On saying this, I'm not sure if mastodon has this feature so that might be why people think it is more dead than it is. I know it works for me. I'll have to think on this though.
@sim @The_Quantum_Alpha @brian @thor @zleap
No one argues with its capacities.
But look at the reality: no culture.
Therefore, no competition with the big sites where people can actually get some traction.
It's like all the kids who got thrown out of class are meeting behind the school to commiserate.
Yeah, there are a lot of positives for the software itself but it doesn't seem like that is enough. Even though you've also got the ability to make longer posts but it is still a microblog, this is great for conversations like ours as it encourages more lengthy conversations... but this also makes it appear less active because we're not having to post lots of small posts. The fediverse has a few different timelines you can browse if you want, in order to find other content or people to follow. It expanded in this way. I think the devs are more accessible than on twitter so you can ask for features and see if one agrees with it.
I don't know, what kind of culture does twitter have? People have traction there because more people know of it, and it appeals to the mainstream, celebrities and corporations. They bring in a large crowd of people to interact with them. Problem is, you lose the culture/community that way. It becomes about them and not the community itself. This is why I'm not fond of the popularity angle for the fediverse. Yes, we get lesser interactions here but I think it holds more meaning, it is more genuine. You just have to decide whether that is for you or not. It's also worth pointing out that the fediverse is a lot larger than we usually see, especially when the Japanese came although they usually keep to themselves. Partly a language barrier.
@sim @The_Quantum_Alpha @brian @thor @zleap
Twitter has the simplest kind of culture there is: everyone looking for the new big thing.
USENET had a better culture, which was cool-hunting with the idea that it was off-mainstream.
If the fediverse wants to compete, it needs to be more like the latter, because at least there, it can produce consistent content that a user will find relevant, instead of random content.
Right now, it's like being on a mailing list for everyone off-Twitter.
Interesting. When I used twitter, I wasn't thinking about finding the next big thing. I just grew familiar and attached with it, moved around in different circles over time based on my interests by using different accounts and the search/hashtag feature or following. I don't think I ever felt a part of the culture. I use the fediverse in a similar way except that I kept the same name while moving around over time when needed, mostly because I think people would figure out who I am on here anyway. In the earlier days when I made accounts before things blew up like they have now. If I could stomach mastodon, maybe I could discover different people to talk with.
Maybe we just need some way to gather content or have it repeated more. There is unique content that has been made for the fediverse over time. Again, I hope we get groups back because we used to have this.
What is cool-hunting?
@sim @The_Quantum_Alpha @brian @thor @zleap
Cool-hunting means looking for that which is interesting and iconic, versus what is currently popular, although not necessarily exclusive of it.
I agree there needs to be some way to gather content. This is what Reddit did so well and scroller-style social media does not: aggregate known stuff of importance (replacing the FAQ in most cases).
Good content shows up here, then scrolls past, buried under a few thousand FLOSS "updates."
You don't think that happens here? I think people search for that content, there are also people that make their own memes or share memes from elsewhere. The memes seem to get the most attention. The other thing that I see popular is whatever is popular to talk about, mostly to do with current politics. Or I guess there is still software talk.
But yeah, content quickly comes and goes. I know someone that gets around this by reposting their own old posts so you see stuff from months ago. Not sure how that is done, whether manually or through a bot.
@sim @The_Quantum_Alpha @brian @thor @zleap
I don't think it happens here. I think stuff scrolls on past and we go on to the next trend with little institutional memory or social capital.
Worse, there is so much focus on individual contribution that almost no center exists. People just kind of flit in and out, like on Gab. This is a trait of moribund communities.
We get more signups all the time, but how many stay?
I think people look for entertaining or cool stuff, memes perhaps do the best here. But you are right in that they just move on unless somebody reposts it. Hard to change a function like that. You might have to redesign the fediverse into a forum for things to stick and even that isn't a guarantee. Even on forums the posts scroll down.
In my experience, we've gotten large waves of people joining but only a few decide to stick around more long term. I don't know how to change this so people want to stick around, on the other hand maybe it is a good thing that things aren't so addictive... so hopefully they are spending time offline. Although sadly more likely to other online spaces.
@sim @The_Quantum_Alpha @brian @thor @zleap
"Even on forums the posts scroll down."
Yes and no. You can sticky them, and active topics get bumped to the top.
Necroposters are an important part of our ecosystem.
I saw twitter in the same way, a chance to communicate with others. But I am trying to figure out how one would create a sense of community in a space like this. What it would take for that. Not even twitter felt like it had it. I think it takes more effort but I need to look into that. Because it does feel less like a community on here now but I can't put my finger on why. Is it the fact that we've gotten larger? Is it the direction that the fediverse has taken since those earlier times?
I don't think we'll appeal to people that aren't technically minded. We're looking at the type of people who would join twitter, the type of people that are looking for a better alternative or who wouldn't touch twitter but like the idea of microblogging. I think we have something here that offers more to them than twitter does. Even if it is still buggy in parts. It is still useable in that we are able to use it for this conversation. But you are right, it is harder to be active here despite that the devs have been trying to make it easier. Like how posts get pulled easily from other instances when you start out. But it does take effort to start out, especially on your own instance. It can be overwhelming. The fediverse doesn't hold your hand in the same way that twitter does when you sign up, twitter would force you to follow people while signing up. Could maybe do with a default FAQ to help new users, GNU/Social got this right.
Just because people are doing their own stuff, doesn't mean that other people can't come and socialise with them. If we could replicate that experience from offline, it would be great. Where you do your own things in silence and still feel like you are together. Sometimes silence is comfortable. It just doesn't work so well because it is harder to tell who else is there on social media doing this. But you can still ask questions and cheer people on when they talk about their projects.
On pleroma, replies are akin to the thread being bumped and thankfully we get to see them. People can sticky their own posts, even bookmark posts to come back to later. There are three different timelines to choose from to find content. It's just done at an individual level. I don't know how well this works for what you had in mind.
@sim @The_Quantum_Alpha @brian @thor @zleap
Writers create ideas for culture. I can only offer up ideas, since I have no intention to ever host anything again or code for anything but money.
If we want this place to thrive... and be an actual alternative... in my view it needs to be open to a wider range of people. That means it can no longer be a geek clubhouse, because the geek clubhouse is incapable of culture.
I think you're right about forced-follow or at least, suggested accounts.
That is fair. I am only after ideas to better understand what has happened to the fediverse over time. Of course, I'm not sure how much interest there is to create community and culture here.
But that is the strange thing. When it was more of a geek clubhouse back when I joined, it felt more like it had a community vibe, a place that I wanted to be compared to now where it has been opened up to a wider range of people. I don't know if it is just my nostalgia talking or those other things I mentioned. There are too many people now and the direction of the fediverse feels like it has changed since those earlier days. This idea of the fediverse thriving through numbers may not be compatible with the idea of community. Maybe it is too diverse now? But with people that don't care about community. It has become a place for misfits, perhaps for the undesirables of MSM. But that doesn't bring us a shared culture or community.
Yeah. Suggested instances may be a better idea for starting up your own instance. But otherwise if you are joining an instance then I don't think it is necessary. Unless you are completely new to microblogging, in which case you'd need a decent FAQ that explains everything for navigating the fediverse.
@sim @The_Quantum_Alpha @brian @thor @zleap
Geek culture is at least for the most part a culture.
When that fragments, the original is replaced.
We're in that process, and how well we do at it determines our future.
A decent FAQ? I thought people just did videos now.
Yeah. I've enjoyed experiencing geek culture, even just some guys talking about their past experiences together in that culture. I'm sad that it has fragmented in so many areas over time. It's not enough to destroy institutions it seems, have to go after the niche cultures too. Wherever there is money to be made.
I'm not sure what that future will look like or if I'll want to be a part of it. I just don't have any where else online to go right now that values what the fediverse does.
I've thought about writing one, but it's a bit difficult when there are so many implementations and things aren't settled yet. There are so many changes happening that I don't know about. I don't know how long the FAQ will be relevant for.
@sim @The_Quantum_Alpha @brian @amerika @thor
Are you part of the forums that are looking at the fediverse
I have put links to both of the forums I am part of on my projects page
https://personaljournal.ca/paulsutton/projects
which is easier than posting links to both.
I just hope we can build a better social media experience for people, we need input from as many people as possible.
@sim @The_Quantum_Alpha @brian @amerika @thor
I know how you feel about that, As the forums are public anyway so if there, perhaps discuss here too. Just paste the url in to the relevant topic,
As I am on the two forums, others could then try and post a url back to here where the discussion is taking place.
Yeah. I could browse the forum and maybe just mention you if I find anything. I'm not sure who else is interested in that sort of thing. Or someone could be posting a link between both like you see with media, and people can choose which one to respond to so you can have two threads going at once.
@sim @The_Quantum_Alpha @brian @amerika @thor
That would be cool, any ideas we can share will hopefully allow the fedi to move forward in the right direction.
I agree. The idea of creating a community is the important question that I have right now. I don't know how possible that is on social media.
@sim @The_Quantum_Alpha @brian @thor @zleap
I think the place needs a growth and nurturing culture first.
Free speech is step one of that, but it is not the only step.
Next that culture needs to be able to select champions. That way, people can "win" at the "game" of Fedi (ludic, perhaps, or lottery).
Then we can build community around what we (then) share.
@sim @The_Quantum_Alpha @brian @thor @zleap
It is not a question of us selecting, but building up a community that will select.
Pick the most interesting, best, whatever.
This place is more technical than Twitter, Tik Tok, and Instagram, so I'd expect we're going to pick the brainy ones over the thots and attention stunters.
I would hope so but I'm not sure if that will happen. Depends on who remains. For now, it is good that the influencer/eceleb/journo types think the fediverse is dead. They are less likely to select the brainy. I hope it remains technical here, I think it helps that the software is something people can contribute to and start their own rather than being centralised. It keeps the fediverse technical.
I'm not a part of it. A part of me doesn't want to keep signing up to different places. I have so many different accounts for things that it is hard to keep track of them all. But it is good to hear that there is a forum to discuss this stuff.