Today in “neither our media nor our political system is designed to deal with a far right authoritarian party”
@mcopelov
Well true in a perverse way - Floridians have every right to burn their state to the ground and undo every bit of progress since the 1400's. It is their state, and they have a democratic right to destroy it if they like.
Doesn't mean that everyone else should stand by idly and crack jokes about it or shrug. We all have a duty to at least point out the destruction, and help those Floridians who like modernity to save it.
Unpopular opinion, but true. We live in Florida and have made the decision to move, but, that doesn't negate the fact that DeSantis didn't foment a coup and he's not an illegal dictator. He barely won his first election, but he gained 600,000 more votes over that in his second election.
I've lived in 5 different states in my adult lifetime and he's by far the most popular politician I've ever seen. The people of Florida, mostly, love him. I do not. Therefore, it's probably not the place for me.
I tell people from outside of the state to point at Florida and make the decision not to become like it, but demanding DeSantis' overthrow from afar(as I often hear) isn't really democratic.
You're absolutely correct in moral vs legal in my opinion and it's a fair distinction.
What's hard for people I know from liberal areas to understand is that he *does* do what his constituents want, if we're going by majority rule. My friends in California and Washington find that incredibly hard to wrap their heads around, but it's true. Even more true for someone like Matt Gaetz who's from a particularly red part of a red state.
@BE @mloxton No one's demanding his overthrow. And yes, of course, literally Nichols is correct. But this is a waste of space in a supposedly reputable publication to make that banal point. The moral imperative is still to write about far right authoritarian policies and individuals as dangerous threats to democracy. And there are millions of people in Florida who do not want this and are seeing their rights as citizens stripped away.
There are, actually, plenty of people hoping for his overthrow, talking about it and wondering why Florida hasn't risen up against him. Sorry, but he just overwhelmingly won an election. He has to be dealt with within the law.
In no way saying that *you* said that, but I see it every day. I was making a broader point.
I'm not defending the article. There's a growing authoritarian movement that the nation's not dealing with effectively.
Yes, millions of people voted against it, and DeSantis, but more voted for it. By a lot.
My point isn't that it's right. It's clearly not. My point is that it's what the people who voted for him want, and it's what they want for the nation as a whole.
@BE @mcopelov
It takes a bit of mental gymnastics to understand that there are people who want an authoritarian who will take away their rights, cause them harm, and divert their future over a cliff.
Do we in other, safer, states have a duty to try talking them out of it, or do we get ready to take refugees?
It absolutely does take some mental gymnastics. I can't go to my mailbox or the grocery store without hearing about what "great thing" DeSantis did, though. This is life down here.
How to handle it? I don't know. I clearly haven't made any inroads with people I've met in the south. A lot of them still believe in "the war or northern aggression" so I guess I'd be wary of "proving" that by intervening.
Here's one of my most unpopular opinions that I've settled on over the last few years. There's probably no way to keep the United States united.
@BE @mcopelov
Yah, that is the one topic that nobody is allowed to voice in strategy discussions or when sketching alternate futures.
I see very little chance that the union survives the stresses of these shifts once climate change, demographic shift, and Industry 4.0 really begin to bite.
I would love to help FL, for one, because climate change is going to fuck them up, and they have very little time left to prepare for what is coming, but they REALLY don't want to hear.
The people of FL don't want to hear *and* people are still moving here.
https://www.businessinsider.com/why-move-to-florida-regret-fastest-growing-state-2022-12
Florida has plenty of issues, but there's apparently still plenty of people who want to be here and be a part of it.
@BE @mcopelov
I saw that migration report, and the only qualifier I can think of is people who don't care if the place they are going to becomes uninhabitable in 10 years, because they don't plan to live that long anyway.
However, a fair number of people are migrating there, whose expected lifespan exceeds the point at which FL is going to be in real trouble.
One potential flash point in the future is when FL starts asking for federal help, and the states that planned tell them to get stuffed
Or they have the same beliefs as the vast majority here. Namely that climate change isn't real. They see water rising in Miami, for example, and most still say it doesn't exist and it's natural cycles. They see more storms and more powerful storms and say it's just natural cycles and it'll reverse eventually.
New people who move here are largely MAGA, in my experience, and they almost feel like it's some holy land that they must be in. It's weird.
@BE @mloxton @mcopelov This line of reasoning relies on the idea that he was democratically elected which IMO is a hard argument to make given the extreme gerrymandering and voter suppression efforts in Florida. Like yeah he won the election but how democratic is an election if its not free or fair?
@Tortitude17 @mloxton @mcopelov
I see this point made a lot and I'll just make two points.
One, gerrymandering is impossible in a statewide election. The entire state votes.
Two, voter suppression is absolutely a thing, particularly in the south. I doubt that we can make the argument that led to an over 1.5 million vote difference.
Let's take the hypothetical that we could, in fact, say that 2 million voters were suppressed. If the federal government doesn't do anything about it, then I guess it's allowed by our federal government and, therefore, since it's the only oversight we have, it's legitimate?
@Tortitude17 @BE @mcopelov
Well few elections in the US are free from gerrymandering, scare tactics, and outright disinformation campaigns. Suffice that he broke no obvious laws, there was no goon with an AK47 ensuring people voted "right", and nobody bumped off the opposing politician.
This is democracy of a kind, and one that greatly advantages right-wing scaremongers with autocratic leanings.
The issue IMO is that there is no effective counterweight. No real left-wing to offer a vision
@mloxton @BE @mcopelov So we agree that almost all elections in the US are fundamentally undemocratic.
Explain to me the fundamental difference between a man standing at the ballot box with a gun and the police intentionally targeting communities to systematically strip them of their voting rights. Just because the threat violence has been hidden doesn't mean its not there and isn't being used.
This obsession with order over justice paves the way for fascists
The guy with the gun will hit you in the face with the butt of his rifle if you look fidgety, and will kill you or your family if you fail to vote the way they want. They will come to your house to ensure you vote for them, and they will kill you if you try to leave against their will
Opposition is necessarily violent, bloody, and involves piles of rotting bodies
The gerrymander guy can be countered without actually bleeding or dying in large numbers
@Tortitude17
Then I give up
My experience has taught me that there is a world of difference between the two, but apparently I am unable to satisfy your request
Peace
He also got elected legally, but the United States isn't a perfect democracy, especially in states where voter suppression and gerrymandering are the norm, or only a minority of the population votes. Ideally, in democracy, the general will of the people, or at least of the majority, determines the actions of power. Our elected officials don't always do what their constituents want or what is in their best interest; even if they weren't all corrupt, there aren't enough good people in power to overpower that corruption.