Louis Ingenthron @LouisIngenthron@social.cleverlibre.org

@mloxton @JessTheUnstill On 3: Right but does it matter whether it's gendered biologically or culturally when it informs the character's backstory the same either way? If, for example, you have a character who's in the military and was born in the 50s, the paths to get where they are today and the motivations that drive them would be very different based on their gender, and that would inform who their character is in the present day... even though those differences were entirely cultural. If you take that away, and let the player make the choice, you either need to write two totally different characters with different motivations, or you need to water down their backstory to where it could fit either one. So much of who we are and how we respond to the world is built upon experiences that pertain to how the world around us reacts to who and what we are. To rob the writers of such critical backstory elements necessarily prevents them from fully realizing the character, and thus weakens the overall story, especially when the character in question is the protagonist.

Now, if the game is set in a fantasy world where there is no gender inequality, then yes, there's no reason not to offer a gender option. But to make characters who feel real to us with our experiences in our world, you have to know where they came from and factor that in to who they are.

Like I said in another thread, I'd rather they make me play as a woman, if that's the story they want to tell, rather than give me the choice of gender.

@JessTheUnstill Also, the "mansplaining" bit is needlessly hostile. I'm not telling you what your opinions are, I'm offering my opinions, as a member of the very industry you're commenting on. Accusing me of "mansplaining" because I'm discussing the subject with you as equals is a low blow.

@JessTheUnstill But you didn't say "I prefer to play games where I can play as a girl." Had you said that, I probably wouldn't have replied, because it's wholly unoffensive to the point of being banal.

Instead, you mentioned a well-renowned *test* (which is how we check compliance with things like laws and obligations), and a variation of it for a specific industry. In this case, it's an obligation for the video game industry to provide more diverse perspectives, which is an important obligation.

My criticism is simply: the new criteria you mentioned is a poor translation of the original test. I don't think it adequately covers the breadth and intent of the original Bechdel test. Even the Bechdel test itself doesn't require the protagonist to be a woman.

@YKantRachelRead "White guy" was a term you introduced to the conversation.
So you did read my posts, you just chose to twist the words to fuck with me. Goodbye, troll.

@YKantRachelRead Did you read my post at all before responding?

I welcome games that let me play as new and different perspectives. I don't want to force them to let me play as a white guy any more than I want to force narrative games to water down their characters into bland one-size-fits-all blobs.

@mloxton @JessTheUnstill It depends on the type of game. For online games and the like, it's really not hard, and should be expected.

But think about narrative, or story-heavy games. In those games, you play the role of a character (hence Role-Playing Games, or RPGs). To allow the player to be of variable gender you'd have to:
(1) Have different art (easy)
(2) Record two versions of every line of dialogue that even vaguely refers to the gender of the character (harder than it sounds, but still doable)
(3) Remove all themes or plotlines that are gendered (i.e. motherhood, lesbian relationships, gender transitioning) or just water them down enough that they can become interchangeable.

That last one is what tips the scales for me. To write a deep, rich character, you need to know everything about who they were up until the player takes over for them. You can't do that if you don't know things like what gender, age, race they are, or where they're from. So leaving those options up to the player necessarily weakens the narrative.

I never connected with Commander Shepherd or my Fallout/Elder Scrolls characters quite like I did with Geralt or Joel/Ellie, and that's because the former aren't really characters at all... they're just empty vessels to do the player's will.

@JessTheUnstill I'm not defensive about the idea of playing as a girl. I welcome the option, and do choose it on occasion.

My problem with using that standard is that forcing the protagonist to be of variable gender necessarily limits narrative options. For example, would you support requiring the choice of protagonist gender on games that are meant to show a female perspective?

The gender of a character can greatly inform their character development and history. When you require that to be a blank slate, you get less interesting protagonist characters as a result.

To put it simply, I'd rather 50% of games force me to play as a woman than force those game developers to let me choose.

@JessTheUnstill Although, in hindsight, that's a terrible example, since there are sections where you play as Ellie.

@JessTheUnstill If you qualified that to "any game with a character/avatar creator", I'd wholeheartedly agree.
But do you really think it would be such a "low bar" for a major narrative game like, say, The Last of Us, to make Joel's gender an option?

@JessTheUnstill That criteria sounds far less useful as a test of feminist/equality principles than the original Bechdel test.
By that criteria, those gross anime beach volleyball games would qualify.

@PHIL_FISH@mastodon.gamedev.place I hope you have a cave to retreat to, because soon, that's the only place you'll be able to avoid it.

@Clementulus @thesquirrelfish But you do have that option, especially with the fediverse: You can start your own instance. You can do that with a home computer and an internet line yourself, or purchase a server already configured and ready to go.
By choosing to join an existing server, you *are* choosing to let someone else moderate your experience, at least to an extent.

@Clementulus @thesquirrelfish You should look at the unfiltered replies to my first pinned toot if you really think that you "[do] not really expect to ever come across those posts or ideas because [you] don't search them out".

An unmoderated forum is nice in theory, but in practice, it always, *always* inevitably turns into a swamp of shit.