E-bikes are a key part of the solution to so many problems that Congress isn't very interested in them. https://www.thedailybeast.com/forget-tesla-and-electric-cars-e-bikes-are-the-future-of-transportation
These things could replace a lot of cars...
@dangillmor I am going to say this as loud as I can anytime someone mentions E-Bikes - that is the one thing you will never foist of on most Americans, and when you try to push them on people you are just minting Republican voters. Look at the level of outrage when the Republicans pushed the lie that the liberals were coming for their gas stoves. You tell Americans you're coming for their cars and hell will have no fury like what you will see then, and that is the one issue that could precipitate a general revulsion toward whichever party proposes it.
Like it or not we are a car society, in part because most of the US experiences various bouts of inclement weather. Maybe you can get a kid to ride a bike to school in a blizzard in the dead of winter if his only other option is to walk, but no self-respecting adult in the USA will ever do that (well, maybe I should not say no one, there are probably people who would freeze to death, or arrive at work drenched to the bone just to prove a point, but it's not going to stop everyone else from thinking they're nuts).
Yeah, I know, people in Europe blah blah but they do have cars in Europe, but also people in Europe have much better and safer public transportation that can be used in bad weather and I'd also bet employers there are not as quick to fire someone if they show up a bit late to work becase they had to take shelter and wait for a storm to pass. And also I'd bet bicycle theft is not as big a thing as in the USA. And they don't have to go five miles to the nearest Walmart to get their groceries (if you can find a decent food store anywhere near an American downtown or in a rural area, prepare to be gouged on the prices!).
Last time I said this someone replied that the day would come when I would beg for a bicycle. And my reply was, no, I would beg to be shot in the head first, and I was dead serious about that. I have no quarrel with the people who want to ride bikes for fun or exercise, but even most of them only want to do that when the weather is nice (I'm not talking about athletes or professional racers, obviously). But the older you get, the less comfortable bikes get, and you will notice that most of the people who have it in their head that bikes are any kind of solution are under 50!
There may be a solution that is kind of like a bicycle that would work IF it is (or can be) fully enclosed (and maybe even have a heat source for the winter months) and IF you can EASILY carry a few bags of groceries and a couple of kids without spending more than 30 seconds securing them, and IF (this is the big one) the infrastructure improves so that bike riders aren't just moving targets for all the larger vehicles out there. Oh, and if you don't look ridiculous riding in one! There is no way that will happen in my lifetime, and probably not in yours.
Electric cars are something most Americans would accept in time. Bicycles (electric or manual) are not, at least not as a means of critical transportation! I think about the best you could hope for is something on the order of enclosed golf carts (but designed more aerodynamically) but those would still only be good for relatively short trips.
@anubis2814 @dangillmor It's not that everyone loves cars all that much, in fact they can be an expesive nuisance at time. But they do one thing really well that bikes will never do, which is to enclose their occupants and cargo in a protective cage that is shielded from the elements. Young people don't care much about that but as they get older, and especially if they have a family, those attitudes will change.
When I was around 18 I had a small Honda motorcycle that almost could have qualified as an e-bike except it used gasoline. It was small and could only go up to 45 mph, as long as the wind was at your back. And I thought it was great at first, until I got caught in the pouring rain a few times, and discovered that I had to plan on it taking twice as long to get anywhere, and that the seat was damn uncomfortable if I went any distance, and that any exposed part of my body was likely to get severely sunburned, and that I couldn't carry much of anyting without having to spend ten minutes trying to strap it down so it would not spill. Eventually I got a larger motorcycle but all that really meant was I could go faster and was allowed on the expressway, but all the other problems were there.
Point is if someone is young and thinks bicycles or e-bikes are a solution, be sure to check back with them in about 10 or 15 years and see if they still feel that way.
Attitudes and people change, when I was young everybody was all about love and peace and feelin' groovy, even a lot of our music was about peace and equality. Then life happened, and some of my age-peers turned into monsters. So yes, there will be a generational shift, but not in the way you are thinking. At least half of your high-minded idealists will be buying a car within the next ten years or so, as the impracticality of bicycles for basic transportation hits them in the face (and hopefully that's all that hits them, not a larger vehicle!).
I'd love to have all the bicycles that are sitting unused in garages, basements and storage sheds/units. Just the scrap metal value alone would probably make me a billionaire. And most of those were probably purchased by people who thought they really wanted to ride a bicycle, until they actually did it a few times.
Cars serve a purpose, and are great when used as needed, the infrastructure was pushed on us using soviet style planned economics all for the benefits of the car and oil companies all to the detriment of other forms of transit and our own emotional well-being. You seem to understand what I'm against but not what we are for. I highly suggest watching strong towns on youtube to explain why and how the suburbs have always been a scam and maybe notjustbikes who shows how the netherlands do it and back in the 70s was just as much a car culture but eventually changed with a lot of social pressure. I and everyone else I know owns a car. I have two, I want to only HAVE to own one if I want. People in the netherlands use ebikes with carriers for their kids over minivans and its the quickest way to get anywhere in the city because they realized its so much cheaper to not have to repave the road every year.
@anubis2814 @dangillmor You really are clueless, aren't you? Everybody points to the Netherlands as a model to emulate. If it were such a great model why hasn't it spread much outside the Netherlands? Because very few people really WANT to ride a bicycle when the weather is bad. Which, by the way, is the elephant in the room you keep ignoring. You say, "People in the netherlands use ebikes with carriers for their kids over minivans" and I'm sure that some actually prefer that in good weather. But ask how they feel about loading their kids into a bicycle carrier in pouring rain or in a snowstorm and any decent mom is going to tell you that's a non-starter.
Further everrything in your reply practically screams "VOTE FOR TRUMP OR DESANTIS SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO FACE THE HORROR I WANT TO INFLICT!" If all Democrats (or all Republicans for that matter) thought as you do they would never win another election. End single family only zoning - so you want to force everyone to live in soviet-style collectives? No fucking way! I will grant that single family homes have not been as available for people of color due to racist policies but the solution there is to end those policies. And the reason that is not happening is because our courts are so corrupt but that's a whole other issue.
You don't seem to realize that not everyone is a social animal that wants to live around other people. Whe you think of the suburbs you probably think of HOA's where there is some asshole (and probably racist) Karen with a ruler out measuring your grass and reporting you to the HOA if you don't cut it often enough. Believe me that even though I would hate living in a city, I would hate living in a suburb like that even more. Once you get a few miles out of town and away from major population centers, you find a lot of people who choose to live out there because they don't want to be elbow to elbow with other people. And now along you come wanting to end single family zoning. If you tried to seriously push that idea in the area where I live (definitely NOT a suburb with a HOA) you'd best hire bodyguards because one of the old guys out here would probably put a bullet in you and then feed you to his pigs.
Anyway, I am beginning to suspect you are still pretty young and have no idea how the world works. People in the Netherlands are different because they have always been under the thumb of someone controlling them, either church or state, and they have the mentality that they must just accept whatever edicts are handed down from on high (much like people in China, where they also ride bicycles!). Americans wll not sit still for THAT level of control, especially if they think their rights/freedom/property are being taken away by a political party. Right now it is the Republicans who are playing with fire (by suggesting taking away Social Security and other social programs) but the liberal Democrats could just as easily scare people back into voting Rebublican if the try to adopt the policies you seem to think are a good idea.
I go back to your previous message where you said, "Young people don't like cars and it will be a generational shift." The thing is, young people don't saty young forever. They grow up, they have kids, they need a place to live, and their attitudes change. Most of the hippies of the Boomer generation that wanted to live in a collective on a farm with other young people discovered that's just not a sustainable way to live in the United States - and they got older! When every joint on your body starts to ache, you don't want to be anywhere near a bicycle.
Stop and ask yourself how your proposed policies would play on Fox News. They got a lot of traction with the lie of "liberals are coming to taker away your gas stoves" - while kind of mileage do you think they would get from "liberals want to take away your car and force you to ride a bicycle!" or "liberals want to take away your single-family home and force you to live in an apartment" (even though it has been Republican policies that have actually forced that choice on many low-income people, but they would gladly try to hang it on the liberals if they could!).
Like I said, watch notjistbikes on YouTube for a better understanding of how they actually do it because you are using an argument from ignorance fallacy here, not your fault I used to think that. And this sort of thing can only ever be done on the local level which gets way less partisan and more nimby vs anti nimby. At the state or national party level, Just give cities money for bike infrastructure, dont tell them how to use it. The actually struggle will happen at the city level like it did in the Netherlands, not at the federal level.
Why hasn't it spread more? Lack of education and a huge car/oil/lithum propaganda campaign. The fact that you don't understand that you can fairly easily bike in all weather conditions of you prioritize it says a lot about this understanding.
It's not that you CAN'T bike in almost all weather conditions, it's that most people don't WANT to bike unless it is pleasant and warm, and they don't have a big load to carry. It has nothing to do with a car/oil/lithium propaganda campaign. You are falling into the trap of thinking that if only people had more correct information they would see things your way. You are totally ignoring the comfort factor. People don't want to be cold or wet, or a moving target for bigger vehicles. Also they don't want to have to be bothered with servicing a bike (modern cars are pretty reliable compared to when I was a kid, I am not sure you can say the same about bicycles, because they still use chains).
Oh, and funny you should mention Lithium. I don't know what propaganda campaign you think they have going but it must not be woring very well because I frequently see stories on the news about lithium batteries catching fire (just saw another one last night in fact). That is another reason some people I know would not want an e-bike - having to store it in an apartment, house or garage (which you would have to do if you don't want it stolen) would make them fear the possibility of setting their place ablaze. This, I think, is a temporary problem (I have seen several solutions proposed to make lithium-ion batteries less volatile, and also they are working on promising alternatives to lithium-ion) but for now it is a problem.
Anyway I don't know if you think that if you keep saying "Netherlands" often ernough I'm magically going to come around to your point of view, but WE ARE NOT THE NETHERLANDS! In fact almost nobody is like the Netherlands, they are kind of a unique place in the world. And somehow they have managed to convince their citizens that some degree of hardship and deprivation are good things. Maybe if Donald fucking Trump started pushing bike paths (fat chance) hispeople would come around, but I think it more likely they turn on him.
As for making it work at the local level, I can think of only ONE city in my state (a college town) where your ideas might achieve wide acceptance. It's a terribly expensive city to live in and many people who are not students or faculty have fled to those suburbs you think will magically go away if they change the zoning laws, but I could see it happening there. In any other part of the state, whatever goof proposed it would get kicked out in the next election.
I stand by what I said before. I do think you are young and clueless and if you want to block me because you think I am too combative by not telling you what you want to hear, that would be great, because being polite to people who are spouting nonsense (especially when that nonsense can help people like Trump and DeSantis and other fascist slimeballs get elected) is not my thing. I don't suffer fools gladly! But yeah, scare Americans into thinking "the libs" are coming for their cars and help Republicans get elected. They are not going to build your bike paths for you (they are too invested in big oil), in fact it would not surpise me if they started passing laws aiming to ban government expendetures on bike paths, it would be another way for them to "own the libs" and in many towns it would be a somewhat popular proposal!
Par 1: The people don't want to be hit by large moving cars. That's why we need bike infrastructure and protected bike lanes because everything is subsidized car centric using literal soviet style planned economy, and by kids used to be able to walk 5 miles alone and now can't leave their yard without the threat of getting hit. Everyone subsidizes the crap out of motorists, even people who don't have a car. We just want equal infrastructure and choice, we don't want to ban all cars, the supposed free-market choice of public transit biking or walking was stolen from us.
Paragraph 2:
The lithium battery fires have been debunked. The issue is that most fire departments weren't taught where to put the hose, are just spraying on the case. Once they learn how to crack the case and put the hose in the right area it can get drowned pretty quickly. Ebike batteries are safe to store you just don't want to charge them and walk away.
Paragraph 3. The Netherlands weren't the Netherlands 30 years ago,m they were just as car centric as we are now. It took a lot of work and education. Funding alternatives such a bike paths are a bonus to every city, I don't know where you are getting this believe that it will turn everyone fascist if we express our dislike of the car prison we are locked into with zero choice unless we want to end up as street pizza. Its also ridiculously expensive to own a car instead of a bike and a debt trap we are all stuck in along with repairs and maintenance (10-100 time more expensive than on a bike) along with insurance(not needed on a bike). Twice a year both my cars require $2k at least in just repairs.
Paragraph 5: AS A 44 year old man sure I'm young and naive. I've been active in politics and like I said, can be done locally but only if the federal government provides money for it. You aren't wiser or smarter than me by not telling me what I want to hear, I've seen it happen, the red states will take longer to get bike infrastructure but literally everyone wins. Blood red Indianapolis had a GREAT bike infrastructure and I could bike to work every day safely it was amazing. I REALLY miss it, here in supposedly blue Philly. This is and doesn't need to be a partisan issue. Some paltry bike infrastructure made it into the infrastructure bill as well as public and transit and Fox news said no0thing because its not taking anything away its giving more choice to people who want it. Its sounds like you are hyper isolated where you live and have never seen the other side of things when it comes to bike infrastructure. You are screaming that America will turn red while most mayors red and blue promise more bike infrastructure even if its never enough.
Kids used to be able to walk to school because there was a time when the media didn't have parents believing there was a child abductor/molestor hiding behind every tree.
If the battery fires have been debunked, the news media hasn't got the word yet. Anything can be debunked if you pay the right "expert" enough money.
What you call work and education some might call propaganda and forcing unwanted choices on people. People pay for car insurance and gas and maintenence because they don't want to be caught out in the rain/wind/snow/cold on a bike. For such people a bicycle is just an added expense and if you have a car you have no need for a bicycle.
I am not opposed to bike paths in general as long as the county or municipality or whatever maintains them (and that includes picking up trash discared by thoughtless bicyclists). In other words don't force adjacent landowners to maintain them. But even then, a lot depends on the area - a bike path in the wrong place can attract people you might not want to attact. Not all NIMBY's are just ranting; some people (including bicyclists) are just thoughtless assholes. We have that problem now with snowmobilers.
Don't get me wrong, what I am screaming about is the people who say things like "we've got to get people to stop using cars and start riding bicycles, like in the Netherlands" THAT is the big turn off and promoptes a visceral "fuck you" response. There are ways to promote bike paths that frame it as strictly a matter of choice and safety for those who choose of their own free will, without coercion, to ride a bike, but those who want to win on that point should NEVER EVER mention the possibility of getting people out of their cars. If that happens organically then you win but the minute people think you are trying to force them to give up their cars and ride bicycles like in the Netherlands, you lose. And people WILL vote Rebublican to avoid that, if they think the Republicans will tell the bicycle proponents where to go.
@anubis2814 @dangillmor I don't know why you insist on bringing the Netherlands into this, Americans do not want to live in the Netherlands. But since you mentioned them, I would love to know what you mean by "they took away cars subsided privilege ". What subsided privilege? Why do you think is is a special privilege for people to be able to get where they need to go in comfort and safety? It's exactly that type of phrasing that will make voters wonder what you are up to, and conservative commentators pounce on language like that as if it were some kind of communist plot to take away people's cars.
It's reassuring that you say "Only a few weirdos want to end all cars, we don't want special treatment we just want equal treatment" but that is not the vibe I've got from previous discussions on this subject. There are a lot of bicyclists out there would would love nothing more than if cars were very rare and almost everyone used bicycles for basic transportation (and they aren't even talking about e-bikes). They would like the USA to be like Communist China or the Netherlands. But most people in the USA want no part of that lifestyle. A few may THINK they want it, but that's only because they have never actually lived in one of those other countries in the winter.
I will admit that the USA could do a lot better with bike paths PROVIDED the local unit of government maintains then, like they do the roads. But bicyclists have to take some responsibility also. Just because you are on a bike doesn't mean you can throw your trash along the bike trails, or yell at the top of your lungs in random places, or blow through traffic controls and expect cars to give you the right of way. The biggest problem I see with bike paths is they often run parallel to major roads, and when cars make a turn from the main road onto a side streeet they just don't expect a bicycle to be there and that's where a lot of accidents happen. But yet some bicyclists act like they always have the right of way. As the saying goes, cemetaries are full of people who were in the right.
I understand that bicyclists don't want to stop at every intersection but if they aren't going to do that then they need to be very aware of the traffic around them. I think every car driver lives with a little bit of fear that one day they are going to nail a bicyclist because so many of seem to think there are no other vehicles on the road but them. You probably don't think like that but I will bet you have seen others who do (like the ones who fly though red lights, or go full speed between lanes of cars just assuming no one is going to open their car door. American car drivers just don't expect anyone to be coming up between two lanes of cars; motorcycles sometimes get nailed that way too).
The best plan would be if there were underpasses or overpasses for bikes at every intersection but now you are not talking low maintenence anymore. Or if bike paths could be set back from intersections at least a couple of hundred feet but then you'd be cutting through people's back yards and nobody will go for that. So I don't know how you can ever give both cars and bicyclists equal treatment - it's one of those ideals that sounds good if you say it fast but when you really drill into the implications of that I am not sure it's possible. But that said I agree that there could be many more bike paths, again assuming the city or county will actually maintain them.
