Lunatech @Lunatech@social.cleverlibre.org

@anubis2814 @dangillmor You really are clueless, aren't you? Everybody points to the Netherlands as a model to emulate. If it were such a great model why hasn't it spread much outside the Netherlands? Because very few people really WANT to ride a bicycle when the weather is bad. Which, by the way, is the elephant in the room you keep ignoring. You say, "People in the netherlands use ebikes with carriers for their kids over minivans" and I'm sure that some actually prefer that in good weather. But ask how they feel about loading their kids into a bicycle carrier in pouring rain or in a snowstorm and any decent mom is going to tell you that's a non-starter.

Further everrything in your reply practically screams "VOTE FOR TRUMP OR DESANTIS SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO FACE THE HORROR I WANT TO INFLICT!" If all Democrats (or all Republicans for that matter) thought as you do they would never win another election. End single family only zoning - so you want to force everyone to live in soviet-style collectives? No fucking way! I will grant that single family homes have not been as available for people of color due to racist policies but the solution there is to end those policies. And the reason that is not happening is because our courts are so corrupt but that's a whole other issue.

You don't seem to realize that not everyone is a social animal that wants to live around other people. Whe you think of the suburbs you probably think of HOA's where there is some asshole (and probably racist) Karen with a ruler out measuring your grass and reporting you to the HOA if you don't cut it often enough. Believe me that even though I would hate living in a city, I would hate living in a suburb like that even more. Once you get a few miles out of town and away from major population centers, you find a lot of people who choose to live out there because they don't want to be elbow to elbow with other people. And now along you come wanting to end single family zoning. If you tried to seriously push that idea in the area where I live (definitely NOT a suburb with a HOA) you'd best hire bodyguards because one of the old guys out here would probably put a bullet in you and then feed you to his pigs.

Anyway, I am beginning to suspect you are still pretty young and have no idea how the world works. People in the Netherlands are different because they have always been under the thumb of someone controlling them, either church or state, and they have the mentality that they must just accept whatever edicts are handed down from on high (much like people in China, where they also ride bicycles!). Americans wll not sit still for THAT level of control, especially if they think their rights/freedom/property are being taken away by a political party. Right now it is the Republicans who are playing with fire (by suggesting taking away Social Security and other social programs) but the liberal Democrats could just as easily scare people back into voting Rebublican if the try to adopt the policies you seem to think are a good idea.

I go back to your previous message where you said, "Young people don't like cars and it will be a generational shift." The thing is, young people don't saty young forever. They grow up, they have kids, they need a place to live, and their attitudes change. Most of the hippies of the Boomer generation that wanted to live in a collective on a farm with other young people discovered that's just not a sustainable way to live in the United States - and they got older! When every joint on your body starts to ache, you don't want to be anywhere near a bicycle.

Stop and ask yourself how your proposed policies would play on Fox News. They got a lot of traction with the lie of "liberals are coming to taker away your gas stoves" - while kind of mileage do you think they would get from "liberals want to take away your car and force you to ride a bicycle!" or "liberals want to take away your single-family home and force you to live in an apartment" (even though it has been Republican policies that have actually forced that choice on many low-income people, but they would gladly try to hang it on the liberals if they could!).

@anubis2814 @dangillmor It's not that everyone loves cars all that much, in fact they can be an expesive nuisance at time. But they do one thing really well that bikes will never do, which is to enclose their occupants and cargo in a protective cage that is shielded from the elements. Young people don't care much about that but as they get older, and especially if they have a family, those attitudes will change.

When I was around 18 I had a small Honda motorcycle that almost could have qualified as an e-bike except it used gasoline. It was small and could only go up to 45 mph, as long as the wind was at your back. And I thought it was great at first, until I got caught in the pouring rain a few times, and discovered that I had to plan on it taking twice as long to get anywhere, and that the seat was damn uncomfortable if I went any distance, and that any exposed part of my body was likely to get severely sunburned, and that I couldn't carry much of anyting without having to spend ten minutes trying to strap it down so it would not spill. Eventually I got a larger motorcycle but all that really meant was I could go faster and was allowed on the expressway, but all the other problems were there.

Point is if someone is young and thinks bicycles or e-bikes are a solution, be sure to check back with them in about 10 or 15 years and see if they still feel that way.

Attitudes and people change, when I was young everybody was all about love and peace and feelin' groovy, even a lot of our music was about peace and equality. Then life happened, and some of my age-peers turned into monsters. So yes, there will be a generational shift, but not in the way you are thinking. At least half of your high-minded idealists will be buying a car within the next ten years or so, as the impracticality of bicycles for basic transportation hits them in the face (and hopefully that's all that hits them, not a larger vehicle!).

I'd love to have all the bicycles that are sitting unused in garages, basements and storage sheds/units. Just the scrap metal value alone would probably make me a billionaire. And most of those were probably purchased by people who thought they really wanted to ride a bicycle, until they actually did it a few times.