My point of view about the situation in #Spain (/cc @admitsWrongIfProven):
> _“The gouvernment that brought you good things for the people”_
Err… sure. What government does not bring at least some “good things for the people”?
> _“I heard nothing negative about them in terms of caring for the people”_
Not sure I understand. One does not need to hear anything specific to know that in a democracy of ~48M people millions of voters think that the government is not “caring for the people” properly, much, or at all.
In this case: I think this government “didn't care” much for the youth (transfers of wealth from younger generations to boomers in the form of public pensions, massive public debt and a two-tier job market), for men (a divisive strand of feminism), for women (ditto, cf trans issues), for immigrants (several scandals about that), for entrepreneurs and freelancers (populist rhetoric against wealth and corporations), for the middle class (tax hikes), for students (our PISA scores are shameful), for the Sahrawis (they abandoned them to appease Morocco), or for truth and science (too many examples to cite).
> _“The only violence i heard of is […] not the catalans”_
There has been very little violence from any side, fortunately. (But lots of hatred.)
The crimes that will be erased now are mostly non-violent ones: rebellion, sedition and misuse of public funds.
> _“An amnesty seems a good idea to keep the peace”_
Roughly half of the population here disagrees. Recent History has proven otherwise: the more that institutions have appeased the separatists and made concessions to them, the more radical and defiant they grew.
> _“Fascists will never keep peace”_
I agree. Those whose crimes will be erased, those who signed the deal with #PedroSánchez, are fascists. As you say, they will never keep peace. For years they have been trying to silence dissenters, banning certain ideas, appealing to nativist ideas, encouraging hatred towards other Spanish regions, attacking minorities and the individual, expecting groupthink, bending the facts and distorting History, and glorifying the idea of a nation.
@tripu @admitsWrongIfProven
Who are the fascists is very clear. Those who show Swastikas and the fascist salute, show symbols of the Franco regime and sing songs from the fascist "blue division". These things happens daily during the protests against the amnesty.
@Haydar
What do you call the people trampling over the Constitution, the rule of law, the separation of powers, the sovereignty of the people, and basic concepts of honesty and decency?
@ImperfectIdea @tripu @admitsWrongIfProven if you are referring to the amnesty law: Amnesty is a perfect legal instrument in a democracy. Modern Spain was founded on the base of an Amnesty law (1977). There were several cases of "tax amnesty". Of course, right wing politicians do not question those amnesties, because it was their people who have benefited from them.
The real reason why the right-wing is protesting is that they lost the elections and now want to divide society.
> _“Amnesty is a perfect legal instrument in a democracy”_
In _what_ democracy? Our Constitution doesn't even mention the idea. Lots of lawyers and entire associations of judges, left and right, say it would be illegal. Libertarians say so. A few magnates of the PSOE are saying so even today. Pedro Sánchez _himself_ and lots of his sycophants at the very top (eg, ministers) said there could be no amnesty because it'd be against the law and the Constitution _until a few months ago_.
> _“Modern Spain was founded on the base of an Amnesty law”_
Very different circumstances. That amnesty was widely understood to be “the last one”. An amnesty was necessary to start from scratch, simply because there was no rule of law at the time (it was autarchy emanating from a coup d'etat).
> _“There were several cases of ‘tax amnesty’”_
Yes. Two by the PSOE and one by the PP. Very different in nature to what is being announced now. And at least one of them was declared illegal by the Constitutional Court.
So what?
> _“The real reason why the right-wing is protesting is that they lost the elections and now want to divide society”_
It's not “the right-wing” protesting. Puigdemont's own party is right-of-centre. The Basque separatists of the PNV, who are _not_ protesting, are definitely in the right. Roughly half the country is opposed — and so is part of the moderate right, the centre, and lots of intellectuals and judges.
Pardoning criminals and supporting secession is, _by definition_, more divisive than applying the law and defending the unity of the country.
@tripu @Haydar @ImperfectIdea > Pardoning criminals and supporting secession is, by definition, more divisive than applying the law and defending the unity of the country.
Confused. You say the country is divided. Yet allowing the people with different ideas to leave is bad.
Do you perchance want the non-agressive people to stay because you fear what the others would do if they were all there is left?
Well, just a silly idea. I'll see myself out...
@admitsWrongIfProven
They are not "leaving", they're deciding unilaterally what the country is - a country that belongs to all Spanish citizens. And they're doing so illegally and immorally.
You suggest we want the Catalans to stay because they're not aggressive, and the rest are? You do realise many Catalans also don't want independence, right? Do they want to stay with the "aggressive" Spaniards? Are you ok?
@ImperfectIdea @tripu @Haydar I simply do not have the information necessary to decide that.
The thread has given me some additional hints, but i am far from understanding what is going on.
What i want is for people to get along and live their best life. Nations, i see not how this concept would benefit people, it just brought pain and suffering for all i know.
But to improve, we would have to put something better there. I do not know what that could be, and i think the people there would know better - so i do need to take myself out of this.
Best to you :-)
