it's striking how routinely i encounter people who are genuinely shocked and angry that i would share some subset of their beliefs but not the entire ideological package
this is one of the more depressing experiences i've had in terms of what it's forced me to conclude about human psychology
like sorry but it is possible (quite reasonable, even) to simultaneously be both a socialist and a racist. it's possible to be fully aware of the sickening degeneracy of the queer movement and the violent insanity of the "poison and rape ur kids lol" tranny cult without hating ordinary non-cultist gays or transexuals or thinking their rights should be taken away. it's even possible to notice that jews are widely up to no good and holocaust "scholarship" is full of lying ideologues without being a holocaust denier (altho the 6 million number *is* probably bullshit from what i've been able to find).
rocketing straight from one extreme to another is not generally very helpful. it's something european and euro-derived cultures seem to have kind of a problem with. asians seem to be better with subtlety and gray areas tho (russians also seem to be picking this up; presumably the awful revolutions of 1917 and the '90s taught them a thing or two about that), so i'm hoping it's a cultural, IQ, or racial thing and not like a human thing in general
rocketing straight from one extreme to another is not generally very helpful. it's something european and euro-derived cultures seem to have kind of a problem with. asians seem to be better with subtlety and gray areas tho (russians also seem to be picking this up; presumably the awful revolutions of 1917 and the '90s taught them a thing or two about that), so i'm hoping it's a cultural, IQ, or racial thing and not like a human thing in general
bonifartius 𒂼𒄄
@velartrill
> like sorry but it is possible (quite reasonable, even) to simultaneously be both a socialist and a racist.
there even is a term for this! ;)
@bonifartius and i wish the NSDAP hadn't appropriated it, like the bunch of sexist racist white cishet males they were,
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@velartrill i recently read about ernst röhm. reportedly large parts of the nsdap knew he was gay and didn't care what he did in private, but the _socialists_ weaponized it against the nsdap before '33. may even be the wikipedia article i got this from.
the discrepancy that there were some women (riefenstahl, hannah reitsch) in high regard for their work is also interesting. like anything it's not really black & white, even if everybody wants the nazis to be pure evil 🤷♀️
@bonifartius @velartrill
>like anything it's not really black & white,
How do you people convince yourselves of this
>like anything it's not really black & white,
How do you people convince yourselves of this
@Eris i'm convinced that i probably don't know "the truth". hell, it probably doesn't even exist 🤷♀️
@Eris how with my limited human abilities could i perceive and understand the objective truth?
note this is different from what i think is ethical. the problem is that it's like flying with only radar. some things are very obviously bad (huge echo from a mountain) some are not so clear (maybe just a nasty cloud?)
there are few things i can clearly say i think are bad, like child or animal abuse. nazis did some pretty fucked things, but some ideas were probably right, like cheap vacations for workers and emphasizing the value of families.
@bonifartius @velartrill
>how with my limited human abilities could i perceive and understand the objective truth?
The sky is blue.
It's really easy I don't know why you people have all these weird epistemological hangups I think public school trained you to phrase everything like you're a bitch ass nigga tbqh.
>some things are very obviously bad (huge echo from a mountain) some are not so clear (maybe just a nasty cloud?)
People always tell me there are grey areas but I have yet to ever see one.
>nazis did some pretty fucked things,
Like what?
>how with my limited human abilities could i perceive and understand the objective truth?
The sky is blue.
It's really easy I don't know why you people have all these weird epistemological hangups I think public school trained you to phrase everything like you're a bitch ass nigga tbqh.
>some things are very obviously bad (huge echo from a mountain) some are not so clear (maybe just a nasty cloud?)
People always tell me there are grey areas but I have yet to ever see one.
>nazis did some pretty fucked things,
Like what?
@bonifartius yeah history is full of shades of grey people don't like to deal with. from what i've found looking into this, my perspective on the NSDAP is similar to my perspective on the soviet union -- there were distinct periods of its history where its behavior and character was quite different; if i'd been a german in the early days where the nazis were seemingly doing a heroic job rebuilding german society, economy, and industry, and at worst harassing + expelling jews, i'd probably have seen them as national heroes the way i do orbán, putin, and xi today. that period contrasts quite sharply with the period where they were obliterating vast swathes of europe and murdering or enslaving innocent europeans like there was no tomorrow. (and white supremacists fucking worship them for some reason, lmao! strangely enough, especially the ones who think they didn't actually kill any jews, and thus limited their crimes entirely to europeans…)
not about the timeline but maybe the extreme change in direction had something to do with the night of the long knives and the elimination of a whole wing of the party (a bit like Stalin's Great Purge in reverse); if that's the case it would certainly support my own view that you need a pretty even mix of "far-leftist" and "far-rightist" policies to be successful as a nation. then again maybe the success just went to their head and they just slowly got more and more aggressive until they went insane. 🤷
in any case, the kneejerk backlash against "right-wing" ideas (and the classification of formerly commonsense, apolitical things like eugenics) that hitler and his party provoked has certainly done great harm to the west. rather than try to genuinely develop a nuanced and unbiased understanding of that period of history, which would be genuinely useful as a tool to prevent hitler's atrocities (against both jews and europeans) from ever happening again, we've just bounced straight to the opposite extreme -- extremist nationalism → extremist internationalism, extremist "eugenics" (insofar as the nazis actually practiced any scientific eugenics, rather than using the label to whitewash murder of undesirables) → dysgenics (and the movement against euthanasia, which has caused incalculable suffering), and so forth. which may not be quite as obviously destructive in the short term but is deeply corrosive in the long term.
i'm particularly bitter about the eugenics thing because i'm one of the people who has to suffer the consequences. nobody should ever be saddled with a body that has the kind of (relatively mild and yet still immiserating) disabilities mine does. all the effort we spend on trying to fix defectives enough for us to live minimally tolerable lives (to say nothing of the crime against future humanity that is the entire fertility industry, or feminists encouraging women to put off childbearing into their 30s and even 40s -- something that also probably impacted my health negatively; thanks mom), when we could achieve far better and more sustainable results by just removing the genes responsible from the gene pool (which doesn't require murdering anyone, whatever wokesters (or nazis) might have us believe). thankfully the situation doesn't seem nearly as bad here as it does in the US -- americans are just sick and deformed on every level from the spiritual to the physical -- but that's probably due as much to good luck as it is good prioritization of medical resources. i digress tho.
not about the timeline but maybe the extreme change in direction had something to do with the night of the long knives and the elimination of a whole wing of the party (a bit like Stalin's Great Purge in reverse); if that's the case it would certainly support my own view that you need a pretty even mix of "far-leftist" and "far-rightist" policies to be successful as a nation. then again maybe the success just went to their head and they just slowly got more and more aggressive until they went insane. 🤷
in any case, the kneejerk backlash against "right-wing" ideas (and the classification of formerly commonsense, apolitical things like eugenics) that hitler and his party provoked has certainly done great harm to the west. rather than try to genuinely develop a nuanced and unbiased understanding of that period of history, which would be genuinely useful as a tool to prevent hitler's atrocities (against both jews and europeans) from ever happening again, we've just bounced straight to the opposite extreme -- extremist nationalism → extremist internationalism, extremist "eugenics" (insofar as the nazis actually practiced any scientific eugenics, rather than using the label to whitewash murder of undesirables) → dysgenics (and the movement against euthanasia, which has caused incalculable suffering), and so forth. which may not be quite as obviously destructive in the short term but is deeply corrosive in the long term.
i'm particularly bitter about the eugenics thing because i'm one of the people who has to suffer the consequences. nobody should ever be saddled with a body that has the kind of (relatively mild and yet still immiserating) disabilities mine does. all the effort we spend on trying to fix defectives enough for us to live minimally tolerable lives (to say nothing of the crime against future humanity that is the entire fertility industry, or feminists encouraging women to put off childbearing into their 30s and even 40s -- something that also probably impacted my health negatively; thanks mom), when we could achieve far better and more sustainable results by just removing the genes responsible from the gene pool (which doesn't require murdering anyone, whatever wokesters (or nazis) might have us believe). thankfully the situation doesn't seem nearly as bad here as it does in the US -- americans are just sick and deformed on every level from the spiritual to the physical -- but that's probably due as much to good luck as it is good prioritization of medical resources. i digress tho.
@velartrill @bonifartius Are you ignoring me on purpose
@velartrill @bonifartius
> and at worst harassing + expelling jews
It's so bizarre to me that you think this is bad.
> and at worst harassing + expelling jews
It's so bizarre to me that you think this is bad.
@bonifartius *and the classification of formerly commonsense, apolitical things like eugenics as "fascist"
@velartrill @bonifartius hello is anyone home
@velartrill
it's really tiring that most people ignore all the bad things nazis did all over europe except the holocaust. they considered themselves the "chosen race" and did things which were obviously wrong by their own moral code (e.g. i think the lebensborn stuff is fucked on many many levels) that the nazis also had a few good ideas regarding social things and animal welfare is largely ignored, too.
meanwhile it also is ignored that the allies were genocidal assholes too. churchill wanted to gas indians (
"I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes"), the soviets were killing random people in their variois countries, the US had segregation and probably lynchmobs. i don't think that you could pick any western (probably also other regions) nation and won't find things one would classify as genocide now. _every_ nation was fucked up in their minds by industrialization, the colonial politics, etc.
@bonifartius @velartrill
>it's really tiring that most people ignore all the bad things nazis did all over europe except the holocaust.
I specifically asked you why those things are bad and you ignored it.
>it's really tiring that most people ignore all the bad things nazis did all over europe except the holocaust.
I specifically asked you why those things are bad and you ignored it.
@bonifartius @velartrill
> and did things which were obviously wrong by their own moral code (e.g. i think the lebensborn stuff is fucked on many many levels)
Can you share with the class what those levels are
> and did things which were obviously wrong by their own moral code (e.g. i think the lebensborn stuff is fucked on many many levels)
Can you share with the class what those levels are
@bonifartius > the US had segregation and probably lynchmobs
for the record, segregation was well justified (after experiencing a few decades of integration, blacks themselves are now demanding segregation back, which i think demonstrates this quite effectively), and lynchmobs were more or less just your standard vigilante violence against people who happened to be black. many of their "victims" were criminals who maybe suffered more than the law would have permitted, but given their crimes it's hard to say justice wasn't done, albeit in a terrible way. e.g. libs lie their ass off about this but US blacks have always had a particular fondness for raping and murdering white women (there's a reason Leo Frank's defense imagined they'd get away with scapegoating an innocent black janitor), and white american men back then would go berserk if they thought their women were being violated.
to be clear i don't say this to justify the practice, mob violence is always horrible (in particular because mobs always, always overreact, even when the crime is exactly as claimed) and indicative of some kind of breakdown of justice, but to put it in perspective. it wasn't some unique historical atrocity, certainly not equivalent to things like firebombing dresden or gassing millions of jews or any of the alleged war crimes of the USSR (i remain skeptical; the history of the period is rife with antisoviet propaganda and attempts to retroactively blame them for obvious nazi atrocities like Katyn), it was sometimes an (utterly medieval) (over)reaction to judicial misconduct or overly lax treatment of predators (iirc this was the case in the celebrated Emmett Till instance, also notable for jewish distortion of history, this time in favor of an actual black criminal), sometimes an arguably morally justified but illegal and barbarous preemption of judicial authority, sometimes a result of women lying about rape (we have a particular fondness for doing this) and the notably lax evidentiary standards of mobs of hysterical men, and sometimes it really did happen exactly the way shitlibs claim it did. but overall the way lynching is portrayed by black agitators is incredibly dishonest. e.g. consider for instance that in its entire history, it's only been possible to attribute around 1-2k deaths to the KKK (despite a powerful, near-universal urge to paint them as historical arch-culprits of unfathomable evil) over their entire history; blacks murder many many more of their own in the US every year and have done so for decades now. hell, i don't remember the specific numbers but i'm pretty sure blacks now murder more amerimutt *whites* every year than the total number of blacks we lynched *ever*, even if you count the ones who had it coming alongside the innocent victims. needless to say, nobody talks about this or suggests blacks should pay some kind of racial price for their horrific violence and hate crimes (except ofc ~extremists~ like yours truly).
personally i've come to the uncomfortable conclusion that the imminent threat of white retribution -- as opposed to the much less "immediate" threat of prosecution or even the death penalty, as most blacks have a very characteristically defective future-orientation and are constantly committing horrific, senseless crimes in broad daylight with hundreds of witnesses that they cannot possibly hope to get away with, like grabbing a random white woman's baby and throwing it off the roof at a restaurant, or randomly shooting a neighbor's young child and then running away on foot -- may have simply been an ugly necessity to keep black violence from surging out of control, as it has in fact since done, though, jesus, i hope to be proven wrong about that.
i think it's hard for europeans to understand exactly what we were dealing with because, on top of all the liberal propaganda that the jewish-dominated media eagerly promotes, most of y'all just have no experience with living around large numbers of blacks (thank god), and so it's much easier to maintain the illusion of equality. the soviets used to attack us for these things all the time and used this narrative extensively in domestic propaganda; to this day russian politicians keep it alive (when they have much more legitimate things and immediate to complain about) and their ignorance kinda irritates me. that said, i really hope none of you *ever* need to experience what my country has gone through as a direct result of black liberation. south africa's present is our future. living in a small, almost entirely ethnic german village has been paradise after the chaos of seattle, and seattle wasn't even close to america's blackest or most violent city (the terms are interchangeable); some of them, law enforcement has just given up on completely and they are treated as no-go zones by savvy whites (unsavvy whites who do enter those cities are usually raped and murdered in short order, no matter how many woke brownie points they have).
for the record, segregation was well justified (after experiencing a few decades of integration, blacks themselves are now demanding segregation back, which i think demonstrates this quite effectively), and lynchmobs were more or less just your standard vigilante violence against people who happened to be black. many of their "victims" were criminals who maybe suffered more than the law would have permitted, but given their crimes it's hard to say justice wasn't done, albeit in a terrible way. e.g. libs lie their ass off about this but US blacks have always had a particular fondness for raping and murdering white women (there's a reason Leo Frank's defense imagined they'd get away with scapegoating an innocent black janitor), and white american men back then would go berserk if they thought their women were being violated.
to be clear i don't say this to justify the practice, mob violence is always horrible (in particular because mobs always, always overreact, even when the crime is exactly as claimed) and indicative of some kind of breakdown of justice, but to put it in perspective. it wasn't some unique historical atrocity, certainly not equivalent to things like firebombing dresden or gassing millions of jews or any of the alleged war crimes of the USSR (i remain skeptical; the history of the period is rife with antisoviet propaganda and attempts to retroactively blame them for obvious nazi atrocities like Katyn), it was sometimes an (utterly medieval) (over)reaction to judicial misconduct or overly lax treatment of predators (iirc this was the case in the celebrated Emmett Till instance, also notable for jewish distortion of history, this time in favor of an actual black criminal), sometimes an arguably morally justified but illegal and barbarous preemption of judicial authority, sometimes a result of women lying about rape (we have a particular fondness for doing this) and the notably lax evidentiary standards of mobs of hysterical men, and sometimes it really did happen exactly the way shitlibs claim it did. but overall the way lynching is portrayed by black agitators is incredibly dishonest. e.g. consider for instance that in its entire history, it's only been possible to attribute around 1-2k deaths to the KKK (despite a powerful, near-universal urge to paint them as historical arch-culprits of unfathomable evil) over their entire history; blacks murder many many more of their own in the US every year and have done so for decades now. hell, i don't remember the specific numbers but i'm pretty sure blacks now murder more amerimutt *whites* every year than the total number of blacks we lynched *ever*, even if you count the ones who had it coming alongside the innocent victims. needless to say, nobody talks about this or suggests blacks should pay some kind of racial price for their horrific violence and hate crimes (except ofc ~extremists~ like yours truly).
personally i've come to the uncomfortable conclusion that the imminent threat of white retribution -- as opposed to the much less "immediate" threat of prosecution or even the death penalty, as most blacks have a very characteristically defective future-orientation and are constantly committing horrific, senseless crimes in broad daylight with hundreds of witnesses that they cannot possibly hope to get away with, like grabbing a random white woman's baby and throwing it off the roof at a restaurant, or randomly shooting a neighbor's young child and then running away on foot -- may have simply been an ugly necessity to keep black violence from surging out of control, as it has in fact since done, though, jesus, i hope to be proven wrong about that.
i think it's hard for europeans to understand exactly what we were dealing with because, on top of all the liberal propaganda that the jewish-dominated media eagerly promotes, most of y'all just have no experience with living around large numbers of blacks (thank god), and so it's much easier to maintain the illusion of equality. the soviets used to attack us for these things all the time and used this narrative extensively in domestic propaganda; to this day russian politicians keep it alive (when they have much more legitimate things and immediate to complain about) and their ignorance kinda irritates me. that said, i really hope none of you *ever* need to experience what my country has gone through as a direct result of black liberation. south africa's present is our future. living in a small, almost entirely ethnic german village has been paradise after the chaos of seattle, and seattle wasn't even close to america's blackest or most violent city (the terms are interchangeable); some of them, law enforcement has just given up on completely and they are treated as no-go zones by savvy whites (unsavvy whites who do enter those cities are usually raped and murdered in short order, no matter how many woke brownie points they have).
@bonifartius
much more troubling to my perspective is the race war the US waged in japan; we came within a hair's breadth of exterminating the japanese people wholesale, which would have make us more genocidally monstrous than hitler could have been in his most fanatical wet dreams. thank god, circumstance just narrowly prevented this, but that war was still utterly barbaric and basically one long US atrocity. not to say that the japanese didn't have their fair share of atrocities, they certainly did (mostly against the chinese) but that in no way excuses, say, the way the US horrifically murdered vast numbers of innocents with nuclear weapons just to intimidate the USSR
much more troubling to my perspective is the race war the US waged in japan; we came within a hair's breadth of exterminating the japanese people wholesale, which would have make us more genocidally monstrous than hitler could have been in his most fanatical wet dreams. thank god, circumstance just narrowly prevented this, but that war was still utterly barbaric and basically one long US atrocity. not to say that the japanese didn't have their fair share of atrocities, they certainly did (mostly against the chinese) but that in no way excuses, say, the way the US horrifically murdered vast numbers of innocents with nuclear weapons just to intimidate the USSR
I find it funny people often think the Nazis were the only one doing jacked up shit during WW2.
Lookup Unit 731 it's a helluva read
@velartrill only in the german wikipedia (strange that anything criticizing SPD/KPD is allowed there.. :) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_R%C3%B6hm#Skandale_um_R%C3%B6hms_Homosexualit%C3%A4t_1931/32