@cnx @velartrill
note that i'm not a wayland expert..

it's not that the x api is good, more that the choices wayland made are not good, imho. e.g. i think that the way window managers are done with x11 is good. that other client windows can read the screen and input devices on X is based on the assumption that your X clients are trustworthy. wayland seems do think otherwise, missing that anything on your computer should be trustworthy in the first place.

@bonifartius @cnx @velartrill

anything on your computer should be trustworthy in the first place

go back to DOS

@pomstan@🌏срёт.онлайн @bonifartius @cnx can we not

@bonifartius @cnx i don't really agree that we should have to trust anything running on our computers simply because we can't all individually formally verify the source code of everything we run. this is a major flaw in X and i'm glad wayland takes security more seriously, but unfortunately unless you're happy with some ultra basic gnome shell or kde plasma setup, wayland is not of much use. i can't deal without a tiling window manager, and also my own tooling is all set up to use X11 apis; it would need to be rewritten in some cases and in some cases that wouldn't even be possible bc wayland doesn't expose the necessary apis in the first place

in general wayland seems like it was designed by microsoft or some other big corporation that wants to be able to lock users into discrete Brand Experiences, not a platform meant to give users choice. and if X11's insecurity is the price i have to pay for a tolerable setup, it's worth the price

@velartrill
> i don't really agree that we should have to trust anything running on our computers simply because we can't all individually formally verify the source code of everything we run.

one also trusts the mechanic to properly fix brakes on the car. of course i can't verify everything on my computer, but i can choose to rely on due diligence from others i trust. if not, i can as well stop using computers (which would probably be a good idea :)

given how common it is for many people to have docker stuff running as root or just #yolo curl | sh installing stuff, the X11 security model is really.. not the thing i'd be worried about.

i bet there are other ways to keylog even with the wayland security measures. the only way to security is to just not run random garbage on your system. unfortunately we're getting there with snaps and flatpaks and docker.

"but it's all containerized!111" - you can also break out from xen hypervisor stuff. those things were never designed for security.

@cnx

@velartrill @cnx @bonifartius
As soon as you receive your first laptop from the company you are working for, trust becomes mandatory.

@123abceng @bonifartius @cnx why the fuck would you *ever* trust your work computer, that's insane

@velartrill @123abceng @cnx @bonifartius Actually, there's a thing called "untrusted", which means you realise your work computer is certainly using Transport Layer Security Inspection to strip your encryption via installed certificate authorities, and are keylogging everything you type. There are 50 other things I could write, but I don't need to go further than this.

NEVER use a work computer for personal files, or anything other than WORK.

@inference @123abceng @bonifartius @cnx as i said: trusting your work computer is insane

@velartrill @123abceng @cnx @bonifartius Yes, I was just adding examples of why.

@inference @123abceng @bonifartius @cnx i appreciate the clarification. perhaps english is not your first language; "actually" when used to start a reply (both online and in real life) generally indicates that you are seeking to correct the speaker's prior statement, and should not be used when you agree or mostly agree, even if you're trying to reinforce or add nuance what someone else was saying, as doing so will cause a great deal of confusion and people may perceive it as somewhat hostile. ("well actually" is even worse)

@velartrill @123abceng @cnx @bonifartius

I'm British, so English certainly is my first language. I don't understand what your reasoning for this. Replying to a thread is to keep the chain going, if you ask me. I didn't refute your claims, I just added more information.

@inference @123abceng @bonifartius @cnx if you're just going to skim my posts, please don't reply to them.

@velartrill @123abceng @cnx @bonifartius Someone got out of the wrong side of the bed. Feel free to mute me if you'd like.

@velartrill @123abceng @cnx @inference @bonifartius oooh spicy nerds

@velartrill
English is not my first language. I think no one should have an opportunity of being ashamed after thousands of hours of studying.

I understand when and how we tend to compensate for our misery, but if you indeed want to have absolute satisfaction, go out and slap the face of any random police officer. He is for sure in the same category as you about "the first language."

Mental competition with the disabled doesn't make your achievement valuable.

@cnx @inference @bonifartius

@123abceng @bonifartius @cnx @inference i don't know what you are ranting about or why you are doing it in a completely unrelated thread, but whatever keeps the voices happy i guess. i'm going to mute you now because talking to hysterically aggressive idiots accomplishes little even when they aren't picking fights with the shadow people and screaming at walls

@cnx @bonifartius the difference is not remotely negligible, it's enormous and imo renders wayland unusable for serious users. please do not assume we have not tried to use wayland; i have on numerous occasions over the years and found it intolerable each and every time.

put it this way: i used to hate X11 and be eager for a replacement, but wayland taught me to appreciate X as it was

@velartrill it's good that just because someone has good ideas i don't have to marry him :P