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What is it with conservatives and this "there are only two sexes" nonsense... Are they trying to convince us they arent any smarter than a grade schooler or something. Anyone who has had more than an elementary school education knows full well its not that simple...
@freemo biologically there are only 2 sexes, male and female. If people feel like they identify with certain traits not normally associated with their biological gender, they should be free to.
But it is absurd on its face to attempt to redefine what gender is biologically. Conservatives are pushing back against the attempt to redefine natural law.
@StarAStar No you are confusing Gender and sex.. biologically sex is not as simple as male and female and there are a huge range of bio9logical physical variations (XX, XY, XXY, XYY, XXX, etc etc).. what you describe when it comes to how people identify, thats called gender and is a different topic than what we are discussing, which is sex.
@freemo look. You can get fancy with the chromosomes, lol. But at the end of the day, either you have the ability to father a child, or you have the ability to mother a child. You either run on testosterone or you run on estrogen. No amount of makeup or surgery is going to change your ability.
Its not a rights issue at all to me. It is a logic and truth issue.
I don’t give a crap what people do to themselves. But don’t push your agenda on me trying to change the truth
@StarAStar No matter how much you might want biology to be as simple as a 3rd grade biology lesson it wont be.. There are plenty of men or women, even ones with perfectly common sex expression, who cant give birth to a child.. are you going to seriously tell me a woman who is infertile is suddenly not a woman... Sorry but its not that simple.
these are just people who cant understand anything more complicated than elementary school, so they insist everything must fit their grade school lessons... its just confirmation bias in its most extreme form.
you don't need surgery you need mental help
actually they tried that in the 80s and early 90s and the efficacy of hormone replacement was higher than the efficacy of Bob Hart's "STOP IT!" therapy.
well chromosomes or something.
ok so are XXYs men or women because they come in both variants
ITS ABOUT GETTING PREGGERS DAMN IT
so a woman is only a woman because she ovulates and a sterile woman is a fleshbag.
whatever trans agenda exists is rich people spotlighting them as their latest division measure, all the trans i knew just wanted their dysphoria resolved and to not be axe murdered.
@StarAStar
I agree entierly, but one thing I like to emphasize which you didnt touch on (though your points very important all the same) is this isnt even a transissue alone.. There are a **lot** of intersexed people, born somewhere in the middle on the spectrum who have no desire for surgery or therapy, they just want to live the way they were born, which happens to be intersexed... These people arent trans but they are intersexed.
The spotlight always seems to be on the trans part of it, and thats a big issue so I think its great people bring up that part. But I think the non-trans intersexed community typically gets ignorred and people forget they are a big part of it too. Even the people doing the hating seem to only think about the trans people and forget that its not just about trans.
>There are a **lot** of intersexed people, born somewhere in the middle on the spectrum
there really aren't that many people with genuine intersex disorders. it's probably less than 1% of the population- but if we believe the libtard media then you'd think everyone falls somewhere on this ambiguous sex and gender scale which is simply not the case.
humans are sexually dimorphic. male or female. some of us have birth defects.
not to discount the very real effect of hormone disrupting toxins in the environment on epigenetics, gene expression and sexual development.
but when people say "a lot" of people are transgender, they're not referring to genuine birth defects. they're referring to mental illness that is exacerbated and encouraged by the globohomo media pushing sexual confusion on children
The estimated number is usually a bit closer to 2%, but depends on what your defining as the criteria, so the percentage is hard to pin down.
With that said 1% is a huge number of people, we are still talking many many millions.
One can of course argue that intersex is a minority of the population and you wouldnt be wrong to do so.. Doesnt change the fact that sex is a spectrum and that these people exist on the spectrum at a point other than its extremes.
Its also important to note that while sex is a spectrum and being truely in the middle is the minority it doesnt make the importance of sex as a spectrum any less. There are males who will be close enough to the male end of the spectrum not be labeled as intersexed but still have some variation and female like qualities in low proportions (for example a lower than normal testosterone level or higher than normal estrogen levels).. We might call them men but recognizing the existance of the spectrum is as important for them as those in the middle.
also an organism who has been exposed to hormones in utero, that may influence the development of sex characteristics is still one or the other- the inherent sex of the animal is determined at conception.
the expression of sex characteristics can be altered, but that animal is still either male or female, unless there is a chromosomal abnormality, and these are the genuine intersex cases or hemaphrodites
the rest are just male or female with altered gene expression.
None of what you just said is actually true in terms of biology and really never has been.. thats just you trying to fit an already well established concept into your preconception of what it should be..
What you are talking about is one of many sex characteristics, their genes. But they are not (by professional biologists) considered the defacto determinant of sex. In fact genetic expression is generally favored over the genes themselves when it comes to sexing organisms due to the contradictions that arise by looking solely at ones genes.
According to biologists sex characteristics are how sex is determined yes.. saying it isnt so doesnt make it so.
>according to biologists
no. post a source
read the link i posted just a minute ago. it does not say sex characteristics determine sex. it says chromosomes determine sex
genes + expression determine the phenotype
the underlying genetics determines sex
Sure thing I can post a source. In fact I already did earlier in the conversation, it has almost the exact wording I use (reporductive organs, function):
"Either of the two divisions, designated female and male, by which most organisms are classified on the basis of their reproductive organs and functions"
-- The American Heritage Medical Dictionary
Notice the definition says nothing about genetics.
Your link literally disagrees with you and says pretty much exactly what I already said, that sex is determined by your reproductive organs (gonads) and your function.. The image you just posted says exactly that, it is determined byt he gonads.
As we determined earlier the genes is certainly something that determines that, and often goes hand in hand, but it is not the defining quality (as your own image you just pasted states).
READ MORE CAREFULLY
it says determination OF the gonads, not determined BY the gonads
"Primary sex determination is the determination of the gonads. In mammals, primary sex determination is strictly chromosomal "
it doesn't get any more clear than this
primary sex determination is chromosomal
Here is a more nuanced paper that disagrees with what your saying and goes into details about how sex detmination is **not** strictly chromosomal but depends on the **expression** of those genes and thus must consider the entire pathway (literally what I said earlier):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4880855/
It goes into some detail as to how various sexes can and do arise contrary to their genes.
this looks like a very good paper. i saved it to finish reading later
however it deals with the downstream regulatory pathwys of sex develomment and in no way contradicts what i'm saying about primary sex determination
No gonads (sex organs) are primary sex characteristic, your own image says it int he first line.
listen, i should have realized where this was headed so i'm going to duck out now, since you're going to dig your heels in. not sure if you're a native english speaker or not (i'll assume you may not be) but if you read the link i posted more carefully, you'll understand that it means something other than what you think
it means gonads develop as a consequence of the primary sex determination, not they determine primary sex.
re-read it please more carefully
sex characteristics != sex
sex is determined at conception. gene expression is where you see the variety in expression of sex characteristics.
this in no way invalidates the last few hundred million years of normal sexual dimorphic evolution that brought us where we are today however.
we do have some very real problems now with hormone disrupting environmental toxins that i attribute part of the rise in gender confusion to.
this still doesn't mean sex isn't binary