what’s next [after the equality act]? racial identity? can someone identify as a minority [for benefits]? i mean we’ve already seen it happen — David Freiheit
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@icedquinn Personally I think we are going about it backwards.. we shouldnt be treating women, or minorities as special groups or give them special treatment (regardless of if they face unique challenges), therefore problem solved, be a minority if you want, who cares.
That isnt that there is no problem or that the problem isnt to be solved. But if we solve the problem for all poor, for example, then by extension we are already helping challenged groups (who are more likely to be poor) as a result.
it's not "men's sports" and "women's sports," they are "sports leagues" and "women's leagues" for the reason of you have potentially 300m citizens in the USA and there are maybe <100 slots to put in the sports league.
the womens leagues are a concession so they can play sports at all.
this is why the whole 'no trans in womens sports' is a big deal.
@icedquinn Seems to me there would be better ways to solve that as well.. Simply have sports be neutral to genders, then do all sports by weight class, problem solved, men will dominate the higher weight class divisions, women will be on equal footing at lower weight classes.. a woman and a man of equal weight, both trained to have low body fat will have equivelant muscle mass and performance.
do you have any data on mma fighting or something? Obviously they have a different figure but when all your weight is developed into muscle that just means youll have different superior abilities on each side at best not any side being at a greater advantage overall.
Anecdotes from the internet, but it's basically the same reason why women's basketball is a different league: even at the same weight, muscle mass is distributed differently, and the reaction time disparity (legitimate genetic difference) between a man and woman training at that level isn't fair at all
quora.com/In-MMA-fighting-could-women-and-men-compete-equally-assuming-weight-class-limitations-apply
Being distributed different just means women will be better at some parts, men better at others, for the same muscle mass.. A woman might jump higher and a man might run faster, therefore women and men would be suited for different positions on a team. But ultimately if their muscle mass is equivalent they should have comparable performance if your considering across the spectrum.
@rat_attakk @freemo it might be possible to run a Swiss tournament like they do in Evo pools for fighting games, and then reverse engineer the segmentation criterion from where the women tend to place.
Any ideal solution in my mind wouldnt give women any sort of special adjustments. weight class is probably one of the best normalizations I could think of but I dont have any real data to say how well it would work, or any data to suggest it wouldnt work.
I should point out there are sports which are complete sex neutral where women hold world records over men or even the majority of world records over men. Though they dont tend to be the sorts of sports that rely on running or power.. free diving is the most notable one dominated by women
No what i am saying has a lot of important nuance you missed, most notably that we are talking about professional sports leagues that represent on the best of the best of each weight class.. we arent, obviously, talking about just taking two random people from the population, weighting them, and then telling them to compete.
So? I never once claimed women are **overall** going to be superior to men in much (only area i know of where they dominate over men is total distance traveled, particularly extreme long-distance hiking over the course of months)...
We are talking about after weight normalization, which none of the records you just mentioned take into account.
Not really, no one is stopping them from continuing to do womens league if they wanted to in addition to a mixed league.
average bodyfat for a man: ~15%
medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=8519#:~:text=Body%20fat%20content%20is%2025,to%20convert%20fat%20into%20food.
Even ignoring the difference in upper body strength, men have more muscle mass than women. This is not a problem of diet or training, but a simple fact of normal biological development. This is a major advantage for men.
What does the average body fat of the sexes have to do with the discussion? We are not talking about average members of society, so average numbers tell you nothing about the topic we are discussing.
you would have to compare the body fat percentage of the top performing athletes in the same sport and see if there is a significant different to really have any useful data.
I'd imagine you'd find sports where low body fat results in superior performance men and women at the top of their respective leagues would have more similar body fat
then you analyze where the men and women rank to find where the distribution of bio male and bio females tend to be.
Is that suppose to be a solution to calculating a distribution (in that sense I'd agree it works) or how to create multi-sex teams? in which case im not sure how it solves the problem as you would likely see men out ranking women without a normalization factor.
hmm, yea that would probably work out, and you'd probably in the middle somewhere get mixed sex teams as a result.
I was thinking more in terms of team sports.. one on one sports really dont have an issue that needs solving as far as I can tell.
I see, interesting.. and you feel changing from a simple bracketing system, to a more involved one where everyone competes against every other would solve that? I'll have to think about it.
but you use it to get a high quality dataset, which you can get a regression/classification tree from, which will explain what rules you need to have to have a bracket with a reasonable amount of biofemales.
The weight normalization approach was one I was considering in the context of a team mostly.
a woman isnt wasting energy on producing milk or a child if she is an athelete, she isnt pregnant at the time. The resources arent being diverted there.
That said they are probably likely to be smaller chested as tends to appear to be the case at least. but that likely has to do with being low-fat overall.
If your muscles and bodily functions are, I don't know, designed to produce milk and gestate children, you're going to probably lose to the person who's body doesn't have to worry about those things