Politics
Already seeing narratives that Cornel West (Green Party) will potentially “take votes away” from Biden and tip the 2024 election toward Trump.
The counter to this is that Biden and the Democratic Party are the ones that need to retain those voters. Maybe Biden should try harder to give such voters a reason to vote for him?
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No, that's not how it works.
As you know (because literally everyone knows this), either Biden will win, or Trump will win. Those are the two possible outcomes. Anyone who prefers one outcome to the other will vote for that outcome.
Anyone who says they'll vote for a third-party candidate, or won't vote at all, is saying that they don't have a preference. They're equally okay with Biden or Trump.
Politics
@barney Even if we take for granted that "literally everyone knows this" (the average voter does not), it doesn't change that the Democratic Party should try harder to win over more voters. If anything, it underscores my argument all the more.
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No, it's 2023. We've all seen what happens when the GOP takes over.
So, if someone says they're voting for Cornel West, they're saying they don't care if women die from easily treated miscarriages. They don't give a shit if Black history is banned from schools, or if Black people can't vote. They don't care if LGBTQ people are denied health care and left to die. Or if kids are blown to bits by AR-15s.
If someone says that, that's on them. Nobody else.
Politics
@barney See, we’re well informed. Don’t think that everyone knows as much as we do. Lots of people just vote on vibes. Maybe they’ll be aware of some of the issues you mentioned, but not everyone knows enough to blame the GOP. If anything, some are likely to blame Biden, because he’s the president and the issues happened under his watch.
Blaming voters, as we saw in 2016, is simply a losing strategy. Personally, I’d rather see the Democratic Party try a winning strategy.
"I don't care what happens to women. F*ck 'em if they have a miscarriage. Let 'em die on the toilet in a filthy rest stop on I-70. Screaming in agony, with blood gushing down their thighs. Because they were driving toward a state where people cared enough to vote, but they didn't make it."
"Me, I don't give a shit. But that doesn't mean I'm a bad person. It's the Democrats' fault. They should have convinced me to care."
Do you understand how absurd this is? Or not yet?
🇳🇱
"I don't care what happens to women. F*ck 'em if they have a miscarriage. Let 'em die on the toilet in a filthy rest stop on I-70. Screaming in agony, with blood gushing down their thighs. Because they were driving toward a state where people cared enough to vote, but they didn't make it. Me, I don't give a shit."
-- Every person who says "I'm not going to vote in 2024, " or, "I'm going to vote for third-party candidates."
@barney I disagree, but I understand why it might trick people into seeing it that way.
While it is true that Duverger;'s law will generally cause 95%+ of the votes to be split between two parties, that is not suggestive that a third party doesnt stand a chance or is a throw away vote.
Despite our voting system being such that Duverger's law was and is always applicable we have seen third parties win 8 times in the history of the US presidential elections (much more if we count senate). What we see, however, is these parties go from <2% of the votes in any previous election to suddenly >50% vote in a single election cycle. This is how the law truely manifests... until the actual support for the party reaches 50% it will retain an **apparent** support of <2%. Then suddenly when the actual support crosses the 50% threshold then the apparent support comes to match it immediately.
This effectively means a third party vote is not and never has been a throw away vote. It acts just like any other vote, it just gets distorted in the final numbers.
The winner of the 2024 presidential election is going to be the Democratic nominee, or the Republican nominee. There are no other possibilities. Anyone who casts a 3rd-party vote is choosing to not affect the outcome. These are facts.
Some people don't care which of the two outcomes occurs. One reason they might cite for not caring is that they hope to affect some future election in some certain way. The merits of that action may be debated.
@barney Not true.. while those two nominees are very likely to be the case, it is not an absolute. Third parties have won 8 times in the history of the USA, and they can win again. It happens rare enough it is unlikely, but it has happened often enough to know there is a possibility.
Knowing third parties can win, and that all it takes for them to win is for people to stop spreading the lie of the 2-parties, then the best thing you can do to save the country is to vote 3rd party, if for no other reason than to send the message we have other choices and get others on board.
I certainly would never vote for one of the two existing choices, that in my mind would just be throwing my vote away because even if my choice wins I would regret it horribly.
No. Cornel West is not going to win this election. You know that. I am quite certain that Cornel West knows that. And at least 99% of people who will vote for Cornel West, i.e. all of them except the psychotically delusional, know that too.
They will say, "I know he's not going to win. But I am doing a good thing for the country by voting for him anyway, for the following reasons..."
@barney Statistically there is about a 1 in 12 chance a third party will win this election. The odds are against him for sure. But I would take voting for a third party over voting for pure evil any day of the week... ill take those odds. If other people were smart so would they.
This is a real quote:
“When [the baby] came out you could hear him gasping for air. He was really trying to breathe. ... He didn’t cry when he was born and he didn’t open his eyes at all. But I mean, he struggled.”
You are saying that you are okay with this hideous cruelty. You choose to let it happen, over and over again. You could help stop it, but you choose not to. Because you think you'll be doing some good in the long run.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/interactive/2023/florida-abortion-law-deborah-dorbert/
@barney No I am not ok with it... YOU let it happen by convincing people they cant vote for third parties, and thus people had to resort to one of two evil monsters both of which would commit cruelties of this magnitude and wors.. YOU are the one to blame, not me.
No.
This is a fact: Abortion laws are very, very different in jurisdictions where Democrats write them, compared to where Republicans write them.
Election outcomes determine access to health care for hundreds of millions of girls and women. That is how it works.
You choose not to affect those election outcomes. You may honestly explain your reasons for choosing not to care about those girls and women at this time. But to deny that you have made that choice is to lie.
@barney My response was in no way exclusive to abortion. As I stated, voting the other side would have opened the world up to atrocities of equal measure just of a different nature.
Voting for one evil guy who does one set of evil things vs another evil guy who does a different set of evil things is no argument to vote for either... voting for the not-evil guy who has a 1 in 12 chance of winning, that is the only sane, not-evil choice one can make. Any other choice and you are supporting evil of the level you described.
Yes, exactly! "One evil guy who does one set of evil things vs another evil guy who does a different set of evil things"
You see no significant difference between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party. Like all other third-party voters, you have no preference between the two possible election outcomes. So you're not going to vote for either of them.
Anyone who DOES prefer one of the two outcomes to the other will vote for it. You don't, so you won't.
@barney well no, as i often say, of the two democrats are very marginally less evil. There is a difference. But one being evil as fuck and the other being evil as fuck just a smidge less, is not enough.
I would vote for them when they are significantly less evil though, as i did with Obama, who i dont regret voting for. But Biden, not a chance in hell.
@barney again, not equal, i do see a difference. But its not about the degree of difference. If they were two identicle not evil candidates id also vote for them. I see a difference, bother are just more thsn amply evil enough that it doesnt matter that one is more evil, neither has any right to win.
@freemo
Thank you, and I'm sorry if my post was confusing.
In most US elections, there are exactly two possible outcomes. In such an election, someone who chooses to vote 3rd-party is acting on their indifference regarding the two outcomes. They choose not to influence the election's outcome. That's an inarguable fact.
Although all 3rd-party voters don't care what the election's outcome is, they have many different reasons for not caring. One might debate the merits of those reasons.
#USPol