🎓 Dr. Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@social.cleverlibre.org

@cos Wonderful... FINALLY.. i will get to this in over the weekend maybe.

@chris hahaha in that case, carry on :)

@stux

Sounds like a great start along that path, especially if you get to take the customers with you! Awesome, best of luck.

@Stuxhost

@stux

Awesome man, congrats and good luck.

I'm a bit confused as to what you yourself are doing. I assume you didnt buy/build a physical data center? If not are you reselling services from some datacenter and just charging a markup and doing the sales? What are the deets?

@Stuxhost

@chris was this emant as a reply to something?

@cy I wonder if you see the irony in the fact that the one example you could think of where banks became insolvant was also from back when our money was backed by physical gold and thus inflation was actually garunteed to be 0 (it had fixed value)...

You literally jsut discredited your point by showing that back when we fixed inflation rate to 0 was when banks failed and farmers lost everything...

@cy I never said a bank account will guarantee you are safe in an economic crash.. you seem to be mincing points. I said that inflation at the correct levels ina healthy economy is a good thing... They didnt have a healthy economy in the 1920s, our economy may very well become unhealthy again in the future... None of that is being true has anthing to dow tih the fact that healthy levels of inflation are good not bad.

@hector

Again, some misleading info here but based on some misunderstandings of real things...

> Interest rates are trapped at record lows and even negative in some regions, while inflation continues apace.

The interest rate that is near 0 you are talking about is NOT the long-term savings interest rates. You are talking about the inter-bank loan interest rates, which are in fact at 0 and what you hear about. This is done to encourage banks to give out loans at lower interest rates to customers and is done due to the COVID recession to encourage economy. It is **not** a reflection of savings account interest rates.

Current long-term saving interests rates, according to the national average as of this month, is 0.6% to 1.5% depending on the liquidity of the savings account you choose (how long you keep your money in without touching it). While that does bring us closer to the current inflation rate than usual (as one might expect considering the COVID crisis) it is still above the current inflation rate by several tenths of a percentage.

So no this statement is false.

> Aside from that the issue with banks deposits is that it isn't really YOUR money anymore once it's in the bank.

Again this is a completely false. The money is legally yours, the bank has a legal obligation to give it back to you, and the federal government insures it up to a generous amount should the bank, for any reason, be unwilling to.

You can argue any philosophical points you wish but no one in living history has ever been denied **their** money from a bank when they wish to withdraw it unless the money was no longer legally theirs due to a court ruling.

> It is more properly termed a liability of the bank owed to you, but they could change the rules on you at any time.

Who could change the rules? The banks, no they cant legally just decide they dont owe you money. That would be against the law and they would be forced to give it to you.

Now do you mean the government could change the rules and just say "sorry anyone who had money in a bank, its gone now and your not getting it and FDIC insurance is now void".. in theory, yes, they could, though they never have in living history.

However while technically true, thats a moot argument as the same is true of printed money. The government could (though I doubt they would) just up and say "All printed money is now just paper", and you'd be similarly screwed. As such you are no longer arguing about inflation is a good thing at all, you are arguing about if fiat money should be treated as having value. That is an entirely different topic and so I wont go on that tangent here and just say your argument doesn't apply to the discussion (we can have it in another thread if you wish).

> Just look at Greece for examples how this has occurred within the last 10 years in a "first world" economy. Capital controls. ATM withdrawal limits of $50 a day. Bail-ins and haircuts for depositors. Aside from that FINCEN makes hundreds of rules that mean if anything even slightly suspicious happens, all of your financial accounts will be frozen. It's not really your money!

All of this, again, per my last statement is not an argument regarding inflation being good or bad. It is a tangent and unrelated to the topic being discussed. So I wont address it here and just point out it is moot tot he discussion. Please start a new thread though if you want to discuss this as a separate topic.

@icedquinn @cy

@0x0f when i went to bed I wasnt sure if id wake up to a civil war.. crazy indeed!

How have you been?

@Demosthenes yup, thats how it works exactly!

@icedquinn

Agreed, and I said as much. While keeping money in a bank will ensure your money grows faster than the inflation rate, it wont do so by very much. So while it is a very safe way to store value, it is also a very poor one. A 401K or IRA is far better and will on average get you true positive returns well above inflation. Even so 401K and IRA are relatively safe investments and wont have huge returns compared to other investment techniques, but such techniques also require more expertise to some degree.

@cy

@cy

Since we already covered that even simply keeping your money in a bank and not investing at all still causes your money to grow faster than the inflation rate... how exactly is it theft again? Literally there is no scenario where inflation has caused anyone to lose even a penny unless they keep their investments as physical cash in a sock... so everything you said aside, where is the theft, no one is literally losing a penny from inflation.

> Let’s hope it stays that way…

It has been that way for the entire US history for every living person today... so not much hope is needed.

Now if your saying that **hyper**-inflation is bad, or that there is a point where inflation is high enough its harmful, a point we have never crossed in living history, then sure. This is why I made sure to state many times that inflation is expected and good in a **healthy** economy. All the markers of US inflation being of the healthy and beneficial kind are there. But yes there is a point where inflation represents something bad, but that isnt the case now or in living history, it is **good** in its current state.

> People with lower incomes rarely get a chance to save much for retirement. They’re often living on credit, and stuck with high rate interest loans to make payments on time.

Yes those statements are correct, but they are also why inflation **helps** the people you describe, it doesnt hurt them. If you have no investments and no savings then inflation is not devaluing anything you have, so you are not hurt by it. In fact while inflation slowly devalues equity (money), it **improves the value proposition** for people in debt. In much the same way a positive amount of money has less value over time due to inflation a **negative** quantity of money also has less value over time due to inflation. Therefore if you are in debt with 100K of debt, and dont pay it off over 20 years and let it sit there, but inflation occured at 100% (unrealistic numbers but to prove a point), then you effectively owe **half** the debt you owed before (it takes half the value to pay off your debt it did before).

So you're actually arguing in the wrong direction, the poor who tend to have no savings and live in debt are **directly benefiting** from inflation.

Again literally the only people who are harmed by inflation in a healthy economy, and at nominal rates, are people who 1) DO have a decent sized life savings and 2) keep all or most of that savings as physical cash, in a sock, under their bed for a long period of time.

> I agree that less inflation hurts people less. But that doesn’t make it healthy. Just…

So no, inflation doesn't just hurt people less, it actually **helps** people, when at healthy levels. It increases the value proposition for those in debt, and **discourages** rich people from hoarding money without putting it to use, which stimulates the economy and helps increase the wealth of others.

It doesnt hurt people less, it **helps** people **more**.

It is really frustrating how ignorant everyone is about economics and how much people assert a strong opinion on it anyway. Nothing against you personally, you should feel welcome to an opinion and engage in discourse. But it does show you are not educated on the basics of this topic, and that is frustrating as it is so common.

@sillystring@infosec.exchange @cy

Usually these sort of myths have a nugget of truth in them. While he was, of course, completely incorrect about gold being illegal to buy in quantity, it is an idea that was cooked up from a misunderstanding of an actual regulation.

Basically you can own as much gold as you want, you can have as much as you'd like as a means of savings. What you cant do is use golda s a form of legal tender. Therefore you can not legally use it to pay off debt, a debt collector can not legally demand it as a form of payment of debt, and goods and services can not be offered in exchange for gold directly. All that means is if you want to spend your gold you must first sell it for money and then spend the money.

@cy That is also completely false. You can buy gold, and you are permitted to have as much gold as you wish.

What you cant do is use gold as legal tender. That means you cant pay off public debts with gold, nor can a store only take gold as a payment for goods.

Basically all that means is that if you use gold as form of savings in order to spend your savings you must first sell your gold, converting it back to money, and then use the money for your purchases. But using gold as a way of saving money is perfectly legal.

@cy

> Well, I mean, it is institutionalized theft from old grannies and handicapped people.

Can't imagine how. Presuming you follow responsible guidlines for your money whatever money you have would be in a retirement fund, either 401K or IRA/Roth IRA. Inflation in an healthy economy means such funds would be increasing, not decreasing, so not theft.

inb4: no need for them to know how to invest either, most such funds put your money automatically in a highly safe mutual fund

inb4: even in the off chance that such a person were irresoonsible with their money and kept it in a bank account rather than a 401K/IRA for at least the past 5 decades the average national interest rate from long-term savings accounts (CDs) has consistently been higher than the inflation rate. So their money still grew rather than lost.

So really by no measure is it theft, and peoples income inflating at the same rate is an issue different than inflation, in that case we are talking about living wages and has no relationship to inflation.

Really the only way the normal and expected inflation rate in a healthy economy could actually harm you, old granny or otherwise, is if you keep all your saffings in a sock under your bed for 20 years and never touch it. If you are doing that, well, thats your fault, that isnt healthy for the economy or your own wallet and should be discouraged. Money hoarding isnt really what money is for, if you want to hoard something buy gold.

@tursiops I think Raphael might have the adantage over Dr. Webber :)

@trinsec haha something like that :)