🎓 Dr. Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@social.cleverlibre.org

@realcaseyrollins

I mean where do you want to start.. im not sure "damning" is the right word... like some stuff is very obviously factually wrong, but many things for different reasons.. some is just lack of knowledge (like the stuff about what space is)... other stuff is due to the fact that the bible was oral tradition and then became written and even changed drastically when written

As long as we are treating the bible as a historical account in **some** sense (for borders)... how do you account for the fact that earlier copies said something totally different? The book of Samuel is where the kingdom of Israel is described and the rise of King Saul/Samuel.. thats the modern day version. The earlier version of this text had Samuel **denying** becoming king and no kingdom of israel was founded int he earlier version of the text (we call these the non-monarchial versions).. they were the earlier versions so historically written earlier and closer to the time period.

How do you explain the fact that the earlier text of the bible specifically claims no Israel was formed at all?

@mike805 There has never been compelling proof of a large scale anctient kingdom of israel.

@realcaseyrollins Not sure what you mean, there are literally thousands of objectively provable inaccuracies in the bible. The fact that sometimes the bible will say something that is true like "The city of england existed" (not actually in the bible just an absurd example) doesnt make the rest of it real.... most of what it gets right are the big things in history that any schmuck would know 100 years past... so yea there will be some things that line up.. but since it is written by people many hundreds of years after the events that they are written about you get like 5% accurate and 95% nonsense.. cause sure **some** things will be preserved and accurate but the vast majority gets distorted.

And like i said this is objectively verifiable, you can get entire books as big as the bible where all they do is list the inaccuracies int he bible.

Another interesting fact about #Israel ... There is no historical evidence that a kingdom of Israel in anctient times **ever** actually existed. In fact most non-religious scholars feel that it either didnt exist or at the very least the writings about it were first written long long after it may have existed. This is evident because of countless anachronisms that we know couldnt be historically accurate (as they didnt exist yet for the time period)... so scholars have been able to reasonably conclude the account in the bible was in all likelihood made up at a later time.

In short, #Israel 's entire claim of it being an "ancient ancestral land" is based entirely on the bible and not accepted as historical fact by historians...

Yet again people kill for their gods, gods who tell them the first rule is not to kill.

@realcaseyrollins

I mean if you want to agree with the bible as a word for word facual account (which means you think the whole world is just a few thousand years old).. and you do so bath on faith in the book (rather than historical or scientific process)... then .. well.. i cant argue with you because it isnt a stance based on logic, its one based on authority... treating the bible as an axiom... so i cant do anything with that even if i had undeniable proof (which i dont).

That said, regardless of what you **beleive** and your **opinions** as I said, I stand strongly by the fact that we shouldnt be starting or condoning wars based on what the bible says history was, without any other credible sources to back that up.

@realcaseyrollins

I am not personally claiming if my **opinion** is he or israel existed.. I can only say that I dont use the bible as a historical reference and neither should anyone else. Least of all to justify a war.

The history is lost.. its possible they existed, its possible they didnt.. my spirtual beleifs or "gut" take really shouldnt matter there.

But if you want my answer anway I'd say this... There was probably someone and something that resembles the things int he bible in one way or another.. I dont think they are complete fiction. But since the bible spent ~100 years as oral tradition before being written down in most cases we know the stories in it have changes **dramatically** between versions. The version we have says literally different stuff than the version first written... So while there was probably someone that resembled a king david the reality of who he was and what he did is probably radically different than the word for word details int he bible.

@realcaseyrollins There is no historical record proving the existence of ancient Israel. Yes there is quite a bit of historical record that contradicts or puts its existance in question.

The debate about is Israel **ever** existed is a very long one with a great deal of evidence, but not enough to really prove anything either way, as is often the case when we are talking 3000+ years ago.

@realcaseyrollins

> I saw it as an attempt to redirect the anger many are targeting towards #Hamas and have them channel it, at least to some extent, towards #Israel too.

That is part of it too.. the fact that Israel is actively doing the same sort of terrorism day after day and people are largely silent. So there is a perceived bias that needs correcting where people arent seeing that both sides are largely acting the ame and have been consistently for 100 years.

This is just a different way of saying what I said, that when one person or group is overwhelmingly targeted I find it more important to point out the otherside to ensure people are less biased fromt he one-sideism and polarization that is the norm int he current climate.

@realcaseyrollins

The yellow would be debatable... but at least that would be an attempt at actually making sense when they say "its our ancestral land"... obviously to me the argument itself is nonsense on so many accounts... for starters, modern day jews have little genetic relationship to jews 3000 years ago... second, their claim to the terrotitories is largely based on biblical reference not histroy... and third, why should anyone have a right to land that 1/400th of your ancestry **might** come from rather than the people who live there now where 100% of their ancestry comes from it...

Logically the ancestry argument makes no sense if it werent a lie. The fact that it is a lie (int he sense its not the land they stole) makes it even worse of an argument.

@mike805

All possible... very hard to know for sure... I can think of a 100 different explanations and any of them might be legit honestly.

@falcennial

@realcaseyrollins My comment said:

> Just a reminder, #Israel (along witht he hamas)

Everything in my statement concermned Israel equally along side the Hamas. How is that a redirect?

If this were a thread about how evil the hamas are, and I responded with that it could be a valid argument. But as a standalone statement that doesnt track.

> I don’t think I’ve seen you say much in the way of condemning #Hamas but to be fair I also don’t think that I’ve seen many of your original posts, it’s mostly just been us arguing under my own posts for the past day or so 😅

Generally with me you will find that whoever the bad guy is, I try to understand the opposite perspective... So when Trump was president and being violently (literally) attacked I was critical of that and would more often point out this over reaction... Similarly even now ill be critical of that despite not really liking Trump and being biased against him.. but that makes me want to be more critical and consider if im being fair, not less.

Same here.. normally the israelis are the ones seen as the bad guy (at least around here), and so i might defend that to some extant.. but now that the hamas are the ones everyone hates im more likely to be critical of the Israelis...

The pattern your seeing might have a bit to do witht he fact that I favor Palestinians, but it probably has more to do the with the fact that I like to make sure people consider both sides and dont become polarized to whatever is the target of the day.

@mike805

Yea I have been thinking about that alot too... obviously we can only speculate, and speculation can lead into all levels of conspiracy theory, or can stick to more level headed speculation.. but either way it would be speculation.

The more level headed explanation is that since Israel doesnt usually care about mass-murdering civilians to kill a few terrorists they probably think they can put a stop to that by having israel citizens in palestine. thinking that might cause them to second guess any attack that would kill civilians since they might actually care about their own (when they clearly dont care about palestinians).

A more conspiracy theory speculation would be that other foreign powers are pulling the strings... I can think of a few motivations there... Israel might pull some CIA shit (or get our CIA to do it) so israel can justify finally taking **all** the land for themselves without public fallout. Or it could be a russian power (probably through Iran) pulling the strings so they can divert resources away from Ukraine and towards Israel.

@falcennial

@falcennial Very good way to think of it. Generally the civilians of both sides, while of course highly biased against the other, does not condone the atrocities carried out in their name. Sometimes they deny they happen, quite often, and thats not right. But regardless of if they dont believe it is happening, or if they dont want it to happen.. either way its hard to blame the citizens or treat either group as one monolithic thing.