🎓 Dr. Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@social.cleverlibre.org

@sergiopantalone Ok so after a bit of searching I found the video of the actual event (this is the first I saw it).. seems two points that are important here, but before i get into it let me say tht i wouldnt describe the attack with the extinguisher as self defence, but it is also clear that if it killed the officer (the reports vary and disagree if it was even the cause now that i look around) it clearly was not intended and in fact would be rather suprising fro watching the video to think the extinguisher caused his death at all.

1) the person who threw the fire extinguisher did so from a distance and was not in any immediate threat, and was not personally beaten by the officer. The officer, in that exact moment also wasnt being anyone, BUT had been brutally beating people through out the day, or at least earlier.

2) you can see the scene they cut too later where you see the officer beating the person as described by eyewitnesses which, as they claim, happened before the extinguisher incident from what I read. You can see the officer clearly has the subject on the ground, cuffed, and detained and despite being incapacitated is wailing on him repeatidly punching him while a second officer coes over with his baton to likewise throw in some beatings (though it cuts out before he strikes hi)

Based on #2 and the fact that #1 was violent but clearly not intended to kill, I'd say 100% of the blame in this is pretty much on the officer.

https://nypost.com/2021/01/11/video-shows-capitol-rioter-hit-officer-with-fire-extinguisher/#:~:text=It's%20unclear%20if%20the%20cop,is%20ongoing%2C%20the%20sources%20said.

@sergiopantalone

I wouldnt exactly agree that self defence is not an excuse to kill someone, but I would agree that self defence should only kill someone if there is good reason to think they are about to kill you, which doesnt apply here.

With that said, it depends on the situation, i could see someone using a fire extinguisher against someone wearing a helmet as the only means to inflict enough of a hit in return to incapacitate them without the intent to kill.

I have not seen the specific events of the encounter so I cant **really** judge, but from the reports he was physically beating people from the crowd including one such individual whom he beat **after** being detained. So from the reports hitting him with an extinguisher while wearing a helmet does, in fact, sound like reasonable self defense.

@sergiopantalone

> But those other folks weren't killed by police either.

I never said they were, nor did I say the OP was suggesting they were, so whats the relevance.

Of the list everyone on it but two people were accidents. Of the two that died one was killed, unarmed and having never assaulted another human being. The other died when they were beating a bunch of people silly with their baton and someone hit them in the head.

The cops intent was to kill (thats what guns do).. the person who hit the police officer in the head was self defence and no reason tot hink they intended to kill him, though clearly were trying to knock him out so he couldn't continue to beat people.

this illustrates the point I said I intended to illustrated:

1) the one death of someone being non violent was caused by a cop

2) the one death that was the result of a trump supporter was carried out in self defence of violence being acted out on him and/or the people near him.

The fact that the cops didnt go around killing anyone else was neither suggested in my OP nor related to those points.

> Those protesters charged the Capitol and scared our elected officials at the behest of a fat old sad orange narcissist who couldn't admit defeat.

While I feel Trumps whole "the election was rigged" nonsense was conspiracy level bullshit, and made him look like a fool (as he often looked) lets be clear about one thing, Trump did **not** encourage or ask for violence that day. He intended to march on the capitol, as many peaceful protests have, and the second any violence was reported on TV Trump was very quick to get on TV and tell them to go home and to not be violent.

The blame is on the stupid people who believed his conspiracy theory ramblings enough to act on it (and they were a small minority of the overall crowd thankfully), neither Trump nor his supporters as a whole are to blame beyond just being idiots.

@2ck Just checked, lowest frequency LOFAr goes is 10 Mhz, which is considered well into the High Frequency range... really weird naming.

@2ck Phased arrays of antennas are always cool IMO.. its weird though to hear them refer to 80 Mhz as low frequency, typically thats not considered LF, LF is 300 kHz and below... i wonder if they misspoke

@sergiopantalone depends, the point of the post was not to disaprove violence, that is a secondary remark. The point of the post is to debunk the general notion of the crowd as the initiators of violence when in fact most of the most violent initiations started from police. The very first injury being the murder of an unarmed protesters who had not physically assaulted anyone.

Since that was the focus of the post, and because disavowing the violence from both sides (even when it is a rebuttal) is only secondary to that point, well thats why you have the structure you have.

Point is, the structure isnt about moral priority it is about focusing on one coherent point as the ain focus of the post and therefore emphasizing it.

@alex A friend of the family (hockey player) dated beyonce many many years ago. She was famous but much closer to the earlier part of her career.

Anyway from what I hear she is an absolutely horrific human being and impossible to be around.

@mathlover Sleep well, enjoy the alcohol sleeps :)

@mathlover What you said was in no way over the top, rude, or inappropriate. Having said it was entierly acceptable.

I am simply pointing out that we arent in disagreement and everything you said is more or less in line with what I said.

@sergiopantalone

Sure, but I also said that in my OP:

> Its sad that he got hit and I dont justify the violence overall, but if your the one sitting there beating people with a stick people fighting back is kind of the expectation

I made it clear i did not approve of the violence in that quote, but also that if you are beating people bloody with a stick you arent exactly innocent either.

Everything you just said is pretty much the same thing I said.

@pganssle

@mathlover Right, how does any of that disagree with what I said... the point of the post is that no one who died was killed by trump protestors except in one case which was clear self defence.

How is it a "bad take" when you havent actually pointed outa nything about what I said that was incorrect or even in disagreement with what i said?

@sergiopantalone

So in other words you agree 100% with my original post but decided to call me out anyway for being "wrong" about something you just agreed I was correct about? Ok.

@pganssle

@sergiopantalone

Found wrong about what exactly? Are you saying those 5 people were intentionally killed by Trump protestors now?

As I said in the OP, aside from the cop who was violently beating people trump protestors didnt murder a single person. Who has shown that not to be the case, i havent seen it.

@pganssle

@pthenq1 "violently breaking a window"... violence against innamate objects doesnt count as justification to murder someone.

Im not a police officer, and the federal building isnt a private home. but that aside...

Are you telling me if someone was unarmed and nonviolent but broke the window to your home youd get out your gun and shoot them dead?

Me personally I wouldnt just kill someone for breaking my window when it is clear they dont have a gun and/or are not brandishing it.

@pganssle Not really.. one was an accidental death, so irrelevant as you point out.. the other (the police officer) was actively beating people with his stick, so striking him would count as self defence, not deliberate murder. Not that I justify the violence on either side.. but if your beating people bloody with your baton and the group retaliates by hitting you in the head, your hardly innocent.

@pthenq1 yes they warned an unarmed non-violent woman that she would be shot dead before she was shot dead... what about it?

@pganssle I dont recall me saying anything about blaming police for those deaths, nor did I place blame on anyone.

The point here is that the 5 deaths are continually mentioned without context and causes people to imply that the crowd was violent and going around killing people, which simply wasnt the case.

@pthenq1 You keep arguing against things I never said.. As I pointed out a very small handful of people there had the intention of physically stopping the elections, and those people (as you pointed out) had delusions of grandeur of a coup.

The vast majority where there to peacefully protest, and the vast majority did exactly that. Aside from a small handful there was little to no intention of anyone starting a coup. But for that small handful of people, yes, they had that delusion.

@pthenq1 Aside from a small handful of people no one had any intention of a coup.. most were walking around taking selfies.

Regardless its not the point being discussed. but of the people who did have real intent to start a coup, by all means arrest them and try them, hell you can arrest the people taking selfies too they knew they werent allowed there... none of that is the point.. you dont shoot people dead when they arent not being physically violent against another person and have no weapons... proportional response, always proportional response.