🎓 Dr. Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@social.cleverlibre.org

@Coyote

Correct the 10grans bot already has a wallet in its code. You can see the public key and details of the 10grans wallet here (this is different from the contract address for 10grans itself):

https://ubiqscan.io/address/0x996d6bde781e3e965d2f4f66aa20d06f4c60e573

@drgo @mystik

@drgo

I disagree, people create tokens that fullfill needs all the time. Holochain for example is a relatively new token that facilitates distributed computing with distributed payout and no oone owning the network... That is not something you could have done with existing tools in a way that is garunteed trustworthy.

@Coyote @drbitcoinmd @icedquinn @10grans @mystik @joshbdoc

@Coyote

A wallet is just a way to hold money that you control and can move to wherever you want.

So all I'm really saying is if a bot doesnt have a wallet then it has no way of moving or holding money, therefore it cant perform its function.,

@drgo @mystik

@drgo

I think that depends largely on the nuance. A person creating a new token that fills a real need and at the same time distributes the ownership of the initial tokens fairly without favoring the creators is not by any means a scammer.

@Coyote @drbitcoinmd @icedquinn @10grans @mystik @joshbdoc

@mystik

well no you cant.. if you could do that then anyone could derrive it and then anyone could steal the funds stored in the instance since they would have the private key. Thus the problem.

The only non-standard way you could do it would require a unique key for every single instance-bot pair derived through the diffe-helman algorithm. But while that would create viable private keys it wouldnt be able to be reconstructed and discovered after-the-fact by an instance that doesnt participate until later. So it still wouldnt have the desired results your after.

@joshbdoc @adam @10grans @Genen@noagendasocial.com @doktorzhivago@liberdon.com @Johncdvorak @genen@podcastindex.social @Coyote @Moon @icedquinn

@Coyote

Not sure of any good way to do it without the wallet existing in the bot to be honest. Not if you want to be able to cash out.

@icedquinn @mystik @genen@podcastindex.social @adam @joshbdoc @Moon @doktorzhivago@liberdon.com @Johncdvorak @10grans @Genen@noagendasocial.com

@rw

Its already done with 10grans, so I have no need to build such a thing. I was explaining why going away from the way 10grans bot does it to instead transfering to instance keys (as proposed) would cause these issues to arrise.

@icedquinn @10grans @doktorzhivago@liberdon.com @mystik @adam @Genen@noagendasocial.com @Johncdvorak @genen@podcastindex.social @Moon @joshbdoc @Coyote

@drgo

To be fair its not even unique in the sense of being a social media currency where good content is tipped. There are multiple cryptocurrencies that are inteaded to drive content in that way including on social media in general.

This is however the first time its been attempted on the fediverse.

Here is a crypto designed to fuel a decentralized social media network (not unlike the fediverse but crypto):

https://www.rougecoin.xyz/

Here is a crypto of this nature for video and audio content:

https://aioz.network/

@Coyote @drbitcoinmd @icedquinn @10grans @mystik @joshbdoc

@Coyote

If bots dont involve wallets in at least some sense then there is now ay for you to cash out from the bot or deposit. That also means if i move servers I cant take my grans with me, but it also means I can never cash out my grans for cash either.

@icedquinn @mystik @genen@podcastindex.social @adam @joshbdoc @Moon @doktorzhivago@liberdon.com @Johncdvorak @10grans @Genen@noagendasocial.com

@mystik

In and of itself it cant work that way without a few extra steps. Crypotcurrencies use public-private keys of entierly different algorithms than the ones fediverse servers use. So there needs to be a step that translates the instances key in one algo tot he key in the desired algo. That is doable but traditionally the standard does that through ciphering the private key and not the public. If that standard were maintained it would mean the owner of the instance would need to be aware and set it up before it could take transfers...

All that said I see a big problem with that approach.. Right now if someone tipped me 1 grans I can withdraw that from the bot because the bot is aware of crypto. IF instead that 1 grans was somehow transferred to a wallet associated with my instance, and assuming the admin of my instance didnt bother to setup the crypto and never does, that means all money sent to me is lost in a void never to be retrieved, at least now I can withdraw my crypto.

@joshbdoc @adam @10grans @Genen@noagendasocial.com @doktorzhivago@liberdon.com @Johncdvorak @genen@podcastindex.social @Coyote @Moon @icedquinn

@Moon

> 278,000 dollars isn't a lot of liquidity compared to bitcoin but it's not nothing either.

Total liquidity on shinobi is 141K not 278K, not sure where you got that number.

The issue is you cant just consider total liquidity. There is a bonding curve used so if I had 10,000 grans I wanted to liquidate I would quickly find for each grans I sell the amount I get back gets less and less and I would loose a huge amount of that value very quickly.

Consider right now if i try to trade just 1 grans for cash (by first converting to ubiq) there will be only a 0.08% loss in value due to price movement, so no big deal. However if I tried to sell only 100 grans I'd loose a whopping 8% of the value just due to the bonding curve creep. So I would literally have to burn almost 1/10th of the apparent value of my holdings in order to be able to sell it at all. By 1000 grans my loss on value is close to half!

So yea in small increments you can get value out of it, but it doesnt scale to larger quantities and probably never will for aforementioned reasons.

> I mean, Ethereum works the same way. So do countless tokens that are widely considered to have "value".

No it doesnt, while Ethereum did pre-mint coins the ethereum owners did not retain the ability to mint new coins at will at no cost, new coins can only be minted by contributing compute power to the pool.

The fact that you pre-minted isnt so much the issue (as you said other coins do that to). its the fact that you retain the ability to continue to mint new coins without restriction. That is a deal breaker and not something any other crypto or token of value permits.
@Coyote

> One day we may do a token swap to one that I can guarantee is absolutely capped at 15,000.

If and when you do that I think it will open the token up to the potential of being considering to have real value.

> I'm just replying to this to inform, this isn't an aspect of the token that we want to emphasize.

Yes I know you arent trying to emphasize the token as an investment or vehicle of value. Thats fine, if you dont care about it having real value and just want it to be a fun thing that never has much value, by all means do what your doing, people still have fun with it. But I think giving it real value by capping its supply will actually fuel adoption IMO and make tipping feel like something other than just a tongue in cheek crypto satire.

@mystik

I see, yea in that edge case I can see the benefit. Your instance is kind of your default trust to hold it for you. Plus if you never claim it that means your instance operator gets the money to held fund the instance so makes sense.

@joshbdoc @adam @10grans @Genen@noagendasocial.com @doktorzhivago@liberdon.com @Johncdvorak @genen@podcastindex.social @Coyote @Moon @icedquinn

@mystik

Why would it have to tie into your instance keypair at all.. let each bot have their own keypair, you register your wallet public key by simply posting it in your description or in a public post and then deposit the crypto into whatever bot in the fediverse you trust (and only in small increments).. then when bots tip someone instead of that money just being held as a value in an internal balance it would go directly to the wallet registered in the account.

@joshbdoc @adam @10grans @Genen@noagendasocial.com @doktorzhivago@liberdon.com @Johncdvorak @genen@podcastindex.social @Coyote @Moon @icedquinn

@Moon

Converting it to fiat is trivial I can do it in a few minutes.. I just convert the 10grans to ubiq and then move that to gate.io and sell.

The issue is that the liquidity of 10grans is very small. That is if i had any quantity of 10grans I could probably only trade a few 100 before liquidity dried up and i couldnt sell anymore.

The liquidity isnt going to change nor will the value rise in any serious sense simply because as I said before, you hold the key to mint freely as much as you want for yourself and no one else. So naturally no one will ever see it as having real value as the liquidity will always be extremely low.

@icedquinn @10grans @doktorzhivago@liberdon.com @mystik @adam @Genen@noagendasocial.com @Johncdvorak @genen@podcastindex.social @joshbdoc @Coyote

I want to point out that there **is** an aspect of centralization, one which leads to devaluation and ultimately invalidates the coin as a medium of value. Though it is something that could be easily fixed with a new crypto or migration of 10grans.

Basically moon owns and retains full control over the smart contract which minted the 10 grands int he first place. This means two things.

1) Moon minted the entire suppy of 15,000 grans and owns them all (except for the ones he already distributed for free)

2) Moon has the ability (and is the only one) who can freely mint new GRANS as he sees fit.

This essentially from any economic model means the coin has no true value as there is no limit on supply. If the coins are woth 1000$ each moon can just mint 1000 of them, sell them, and still a million dollars off the market. In the end this will insure the cvoins never have any true value (very few people will ever be willing to buy them).. they are about as valuable as air and always will be.

With that said if one were to create a coin that 1) had fixed rules as to how and when new coins are minted 2) all newly minted coins were distributed to the community in a fair way without moon having the ability to basically dip his hand in the honey pot... then I think we would see a crypto with some actual value and might be used more widely as a source of value for content.

@Moon @icedquinn @10grans @doktorzhivago@liberdon.com @mystik @adam @Genen@noagendasocial.com @Johncdvorak @genen@podcastindex.social @joshbdoc @Coyote