🎓 Dr. Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@social.cleverlibre.org

@Dogzilla

I am proposing as these two independent minds where one is the one that is in direct control of things like speech, its the one I am talking to right now... a second one only interacts with this "primary" mind. It acts by frantically coming up with countless ideas and the ones which it determines is most important it presses upon the primary mind and passes that information along to it.

Both of these minds are compartmentalized in that they think independently.

The hypothesis is not that animals have two minds, humans do.. Other animals may either have a very reduced primary mind, or may just have 1, or 0.. but the hypothesis is that it is effectively one less than humans.

@Dogzilla

Not sure why we need a definition for a word that doesnt play a role... Whether either of these two independent minds are conscious or not is not part of the discussion.. It is about if animal minds are compartmentalized or not.

@TruthSandwich I mean, they could have responded by ending apartheid on palestine, but instead they double down.. they really never will learn their lesson.

@Dogzilla

Assuming we dont bother trying to get a technical definition for a moment and just accept it as what you are expierncing as awareness.. I would argue both the conscious and subconscious mind has consciousness separately. In that my subconscious is only hidden from me, and I am likely hidden from it.

@mian yes octopussies ( :) ) certainly plan things before acting in some sense.

@mian Much of my internal land scape isnt limited to conditional logic either. For example much of it is a visual landscape which i manipulate (graphs are common)

@mian I dont use language in my conscious brain all the time... so im not sure I agree, my conscious brain is quite rich in non-verbal expression and the only time i use words is if i am trying to construct a conversation.

@Dogzilla

A definition of the conscious and subconscious mind **is** central... a definition of consciousness is not ..

whether the conscious or subconscious mind pocess consciousness is not relevant to identifying them.

@hugoledoux

Everyone: light themes are the worst, they burn my retinas

Tonsky: Hold my beer...

@john Right, and I guess i am saying I disagree... your motor functions dont have creative active thought that is then presented to the conscious mind for consideration.. the skills obviously can autonomously process but they wont actively go off and create complicated ideas on their own.

this can be seen

@john

I think we are talking about different types of subconscious and using the word different..

You are using subconscious to mean "everything we are unaware of". I am using it to mean "a seperate active thinking but compartmentalized entity in our head". It would likely have awareness much like the part that we call "us" is aware.

@Dogzilla Right and what I am saying is that the word doesnt need to be defined as we arent using it here at all, and ultimately is probably a word we should avoid since it has no meaning to an outsider, it only has meaning to us within our internal head space.

@gpowerf You wouldnt be aware of it unless you can reach a deep meditative state most people cant get to (takes a lot of practice).. but people capable of reaching this state all describe the same expiernce. So i am rather well convinced it is not just me.

@Dogzilla

In my own model of how the mind works there is no consciousness, that is just a fictional term we use to feel special... The sense of self-awareness we have, is likely a sense our subconscious has as well, its just seperate from us. We have two parts that likely see themselves as self-aware in our heads... but its not remotely improtant if they are self aware so much as the fact that they are somewhat independent and can hold thoughts and ideas seperately.

@gpowerf That is the way I expiernce it when i access it through medication yes...

Its this hyper OCD "consider everything" awareness that is just madly constantly going through ideas and refining them and improving them... the good ones creep up to my conscious mind.

@john

I dont think we have good words to explain this, like that is certainly beyond conscious access, but its not what I think of when I think of the subconscious.

The subconscious is a part of my brain that seems to be seperate with its own thought patterns and processing. I can only access it with deep meditation... it feels like it has its own level of awareness and thought and is much like my conscious mind just seperate and compartmentalized and unfiltered (yes it would drive me mad).. but it is seperate from skills.. both my conscious and subconscious have access to the same skills, and that is where the skill processing takes place, on a base level abstracted away fromthe conscious and subconscious minds themselves.

@gpowerf

consciousness has nothing to do with seperation of conscious and subconscious mind IMO.

The separation just implies there two separate minds that communicate with each other but process and think independently.

Counsciousness itself, the idea of awareness. is just a myth.. something we use to call ourselves special.. I suspect if you could somehow directly ask the subconscious it would think it is conscious as well and have its own sense of identity and just as unaware it is a component in the whole as I am.

I have been thinking lately.. if there is any significant distinction between humans and other animals I wonder if it is not "consciousness" or even "intelligence" but rather simply that we have a separation of conscious and subconscious minds. It seems to me that most animals are just a direct expression of their subconscious with no conscious component acting as a filter. Or at the very least their conscious component is greatly minimalizaed