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Seems pretty clear to me, want to place limits on it, get support for a new amendment.
@freemo right on. And before someone posts the "well regulated militia" argument, the militia at that time was the able-bodied male population. The 2a is definitely about the general public being armed and trained to repel either invasion or tyranny.
If the Federal government wanted to take the 2a seriously, they should be expanding the Civilian Marksmanship Program and offering free rifle lessons in high school.
@mike805 The well regulated militia is clearly an exemplary clause and not a qualifying clause
@freemo also "the people"in the 2a definitely refers to the actual human beings living in this territory. So that quashes any "collective right" claim.
The use of "the people" to refer to some theoretical group right is really a Marxist invention. The founders said what they meant and meant what they said.
I might have a suggestion that could satisfy most of the people here:
**Problem:** The perpetrators in mass shootings are mainly "loners" with some unresolved issues.
**Solution:** To be able to legally buy a gun you need to be a member in good standing and have a permit from a "well-regulated militia" (a.k.a. a gun club or society).
So the responsibility for the security of a society is neither on the individual nor on the government, but on the society itself.
What do you think? Is everybody happy? You have your guns (as many as you wish) and the rest of us are a little bit less concerned we'll get shot at our place of work, learning, or praying.
Why is it more terrifying than being all by yourself? Just make sure your club is not hostile to the government.😀
If the government thinks you, or any bunch you are currently associated with, are hostile, you will be stripped of your rights anyway, club or not club. At least in a club that was previously sanctioned by that same government, you have some kind of protection.
@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @freemo @lmrocha
If it helps, think of it as a ***"gun owners' fediverse"*** where each club is an "instance" and the NRA, instead of an association of individuals, is a federation of all the gun clubs of America.
Then, instead of taking care primarily of just the needs of their wealthy donors (gun manufacturers), they may start also thinking about the needs of all of their other members and their local societies.
The idea is great except where its required.. it would be like saying if you want access to the internet you need a fediverse instance you join and that gives you permission to get on the internet.
How don't you see it is the same situation?
I can get access to the Internet from a library or walk onto a shooting range and shoot a few rounds under supervision, but if I want to buy a gun and take it home where there is a risk of harming other people, I have to get an IP subscription and join some of the social platforms where I can "shoot" nonsense like this.😀
@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
Yes. you can do it all by yourself, but you need an ISP to access the Net, don't you?
@pj @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
You also need a gun shop to buy a gun, not sure the analogy works too well honestly
@freemo
The problem is that you don't need a gun shop to buy a gun or the shop doesn't care who they sell their guns to.
This is the same as if you could access the internet from your computer without an ISP. Imagine what a shitshow the Internet would be then compared to what it is already is now.
If you could only buy a gun from a gun shop, I believe more than half of all the problems we have now with gun violence would go away.
I have nonproblems with making sure the usual background check from a gun were enforced on all purchases. So if thats all you are puahing for you have my support
Yes. That would be a good start. My suggestion was though to try seeing things from a larger perspective.
I believe that one of the problems is that too many individuals are #alienated from their immediate local (physical) #community while fulfilling their "communal needs" primarily with strangers over the Internet except for #Work and maybe #Church, which is obviously not enough, and sometimes even adds to further alienation.
I think people should be free (or even encouraged) to form their own local societies with real people they get to know because of things they feel strongly about, and guns seemed like one such catalyst to increase the number of "good guys" and minimize the harm done by "bad guys" with guns.
@freemo @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
One more thought about the analogy between ISPs and gun clubs with regard to privacy, and then I'll shut up.
Long ago, I received a letter from my ISP that they got a request from an entertainment company to get my ID because they want to sue me for downloading one of their pirated series from somewhere (which I did). They were just informing me of that fact and that they won't comply with the request if I stopped.
Well, I'm not downloading anymore (streaming is better) and even if I moved a couple of times, I'm still with the same ISP.
So being a member of a good club (who knows who you are) sometimes also means you can protect your #privacy better.
No need to shut up.. Disagreeing and talking about this is healthy, even if no one changes their mind the exercise is healthy.
As long as you stay respectful, as you have, please feel free to keep brining up as many points as you want.
being in a gun club, taking gun training, and everything in that regard which you suggest is a good thing. I totally encourage people join gun clubs... where the analogy breaks down is when you suggest it be a legal requirement (rather than a strong suggestion) for gun ownership.
There are a few reqasons gun licensing or requiring clubs is problematic...
1) it means some entity can take away your rights if they feel you arent living up to their expectations, this has the potential to be abused, specifically if those clubs that have the power are decided on by the government
2) It can delay your access to a gun, and if you are in danger that may cost you your life. a good example of that would be someone with a restraining order who might be at risk of being raped. They cant wait
3) Unless done very carefully it would effectively act as a registery for who does and doesnt have guns. This can potentially be used by a corrupt government to track down and take away said guns should the government want to infringe on gun rights and become oppressive.
No worries. The "shut up" part was a figure of speech😀. Many tried, unsuccessfully.
"legal requirement" vs. "strong suggestion"? I can work with that as long as it minimizes the chances of "bad guys" legally getting their hands on guns (e.g. more than a dozen AR-15s)
Specifically:
1) Not if being part of a club, who is a member of the NRA means you are ***more*** protected than as an isolated individual.
2) If you need to arm the victim to protect themselves from being raped by someone they have a restraining order on, that order and the agency that issued it is worth as much as the paper the order is written on.
3) See 1)
@thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
> 1) Not if being part of a club, who is a member of the NRA means you are more protected than as an isolated individual.
right, you should be just as protected if you buy a gun and have no association to the NRA, both protection in terms of the ability to use a gun to defend yourself, as well as protected from having yoru gun taken
> 2) If you need to arm the victim to protect themselves from being raped by someone they have a restraining order on, that order and the agency that issued it is worth as much as the paper the order is written on.
When has a restraining order **ever** provided any protection of any kind against a person who chooses to rape you? the only thing a restraining order would do is make it easier to get the person arrested **after** the fact (since you only need to prove they were near you, not that they raped you)... But no restraining order in any country would do anything to physically prevent a person from raping you if they decided they were going to... so I dont follow your logic here.
Yes. That's exactly my point.
You ***should*** be, as an individual, protected from being killed, raped, or prevented to use a gun for legitimate reasons, but in this imperfect world you are ***not***, so joining a group or club or some other kind of people's #system gives you more protection than if you are facing all of that alone. In some way, these community-sanctioned associations can become a replacement for gangs.
I think this applies to 2) as well. Instead of just shoving a gun into the victim's hands and calling it done, set up a women's shelter or some other safe community place they can use, or get a GPS tracker on the bozo. Yes, it will violate his human rights and hurt his feelings, but who cares.
If you ever find or make a society where I am better protected from rape, murder, and violent acts without a gun than with a gun then i will be the first to join you there... For now that does not and never has existed.
@freemo @pj @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha
You will not be protected from any violent act by a gun in any but extreme cases.
In the normal case, even in the violent country you are in, you are protected by human togetherness, understanding.
If you ever need a gun for protection, you are already in a very bad place. I hope you never experience this.
In any case, don't think of the worst case as the only one. If you do that, you give up a lot of the positive things we think about as "humanity".
@admitsWrongIfProven @freemo @pj @thatguyoverthere @lmrocha yes it's the extreme case, both individually and collectively, that requires a gun. But if one of those cases comes up, a gun is often the only thing that will solve it.
Moreover, those extreme cases are less likely to come up if guns are available.
Switzerland doesn't get invaded for a couple of reasons. Terrain is one, armed citizenry is another.
Police stations and gun stores rarely get robbed for the same reason.
@mike805 @admitsWrongIfProven @freemo @thatguyoverthere @lmrocha
The proponents of "guns for all" cite two reasons as far as I can understand:
1️⃣ Protection from violent ***individuals*** with or without guns, and
2️⃣ Protection from a rogue ***government*** that wants to take your guns.
In the first case, the ***regulation*** of gun ownership is not an issue, while in the second it is irrelevant because you are already in the middle of a civil war and, one way or another, you'll find or be given a gun soon.
@pj @mike805 @freemo @thatguyoverthere @lmrocha seems right, but what do you respond to? Was there any claim to the opposite?
This thread is messed up...
It was was "triggered" by @mike805 mention of "extreme cases" needing guns and the example of Switzerland where (if understand that correctly) each canton (state) has its own "well-regulated militia" (or was so in the past?) not sure.
Anyway, responding to nothing in particular. Just a general observation, as having a gun registry seems to be a big issue in the US.
@pj @admitsWrongIfProven @freemo @thatguyoverthere @lmrocha well the classic counter example for a gun registry was Germany in the 1920s. They had a crime wave, and a gun registry was one thing they decided to do to fight it.
The next administration found other uses for the gun registry: disarming anyone they didn't like.
The UK had a complete gun registry and was able to confiscate all the legally held handguns in the country. Now look what the UK has turned into.
That's why we oppose it.
@mike805 @pj @freemo @thatguyoverthere @lmrocha Umm, registering guns means knowing who has guns. Registering the religious afffiliation or similar would be a totally different thing.
And the thing needed seems more like "don't give everyone that is frightened a gun", like we have here... if you shoot in competitions, you have a need. If you want a shooty thing, maybe not?
@admitsWrongIfProven @pj @freemo @thatguyoverthere @lmrocha in politics, as in war, there is the concept of defensible ground.
The minimal defensible ground for gun rights is the right to defend one's own home with deadly force.
Surrender that, and there is no defensible ground in the way of confiscation.
Example: the UK. They had long since given up the right to self-defense, but collectors could own pistols.
One long-time collector went homicidal. Result: total handgun confiscation.
@mike805 @pj @freemo @thatguyoverthere @lmrocha So, this is it? You stand with your weapon, no social network whatsoever?
I'm happy i am not you. I can sleep. You cannot. Good night.
We passed in hyper ole town a long time ago.
Yea its been escalating. Very common when a person runs out of runway for their argument.
Yes, a little bit of an agitated reaction from @admitsWrongIfProven but nothing so overblown or any major excalation as the two of you are presenting it.
And you may agree that a heavily armed person with unresolved issues and no social support or interactions is a very scarry proposition.
@pj @freemo @thatguyoverthere @mike805 @lmrocha The escalation is due to my frustration about points being ignored. I should remove myself from this, it brings nothing but frustration. They can't vote to remove the sensible gun control laws we have here, and that's good enough.
I have no real issue with admits. Like yea its bad faith argument but nothing so vile that i had to raise ajy real issues.
@thatguyoverthere
You obviously never heard of sarcasm. That's what I was using (in the context of the discussion) while "standing my ground" after your rather bullyish suggestion I should "move on".
@mike805 @admitsWrongIfProven @freemo @lmrocha
sometimes it doesn't translate well to plain text, especially when you don't have any real conversation history with a person. I have known people to mask real contempt as sarcasm in the past which is also difficult to determine in this context.
Sometimes it's useful to incorporate some kind of indicator that you are being sarcastic if a risk of confusion exists.
@thatguyoverthere @admitsWrongIfProven @freemo @lmrocha @pj as long as this thread is going nowhere good 😆 earlier I mentioned pysch meds as a possible contributor. Well lookie here... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11965687/Louisville-shooter-Connor-Sturgeon-treated-depression-anxiety.html 25 yo male who was probably on SSRIs and/or anxiolytics. SSRIs cause a hypomanic state (rage monster) in some young males. And they are not all that effective in treating depression either. Some controlled studies have failed to replicate that they even work better than placebo.
@freemo @thatguyoverthere @admitsWrongIfProven @mike805 @lmrocha
Why do you think it's a bad faith argument?
@pj @thatguyoverthere @admitsWrongIfProven @mike805 @lmrocha
In tbis case im refering to the fact that he is just trolling at this point. Earlier it wasnt bad faith... but also no important, he isnt doing anything wrong.
Well, we all know how things turned out at the end for *that* particular government in Germany. And I'm not sure they had to consult the gun registry much to find the people they didn't like (or that didn't like them).
And, I'm not proposing the confiscation of all legally owned guns like in the UK. Quite the contrary. I want more legally owned, registered and responsibly used guns, but I'm against the return to the Wild West where everyone carries a gun and the one who draws faster gets to stay alive.
If you feel like you need a gun please feel free to (legally) get one, but in these days and age, I should not be ***required*** to carry one to feel safe. I believe some of my tax dollars should go for ensuring that, don't you think?
@pj A register seems the sensible way to go, excluding religion from it. How others point to gun registers saying religion would be in them seems like a strawman - currently germany registers religious affiliation seperately from guns, so the problem is there regardless.
To what purpose would one have to register their religion?
Unlike a gun that can harm others, one's beliefs are a deeply personal thing.
@pj @mike805 @freemo @thatguyoverthere @lmrocha Big issue... depends on how you see it. If you accept inefficient buerocracy, using paper when there are better ways, great. If you want anything functional, it seems americans prefer some burn it all to the ground philospohy.
In the end, the point is we need to squabble, otherwise it would be too obvious what happens.