We have it so easy. We're not fighting, we're not hiding for rockets with our children and dogs in the subway system, we don't have to sleep only to be waken by gunfight and sirens. We will only pay more for oil and gas, see prices rise for things - things we do not need anyways, when you think of the alternative outcome if we do not act firmly now and stop this aggression on our continent.
Putin must not win.
5/5
@arjen
We're also not really solving the problem at all, rather making it worse.
Russia will win this war regardless of the sanctions.
We're pushing Russia more and more towards China, this will eventually create a division between western and eastern countries.
Thus creating a new cold war with democracies against autocracies.
Going in this direction doesn't look like a victory to me.
@rastinza the Russian people will understand they need to get rid of Putin. Revolution!
@arjen
I don't see these sanctions helping a revolution in any way.
These might exacerbate the feuds with the west and further polarize the population.
Moreover, you're delegating the prevention of the war in Ukraine to the Russian population rather than NATO leading a decent diplomacy.
It's more an excuse to hide the fact that NATO is largely responsible for this war.
This doesn't mean that the west is guilty and Russia is doing good.
@arjen
This is clearly not true, people there have small feuds with the west.
Hard sanctions will give the regime a better way to propaganda against the west.
@rastinza how is NATO responsible for another country invading their neighbor. There's no excuse for Putin's actions.
@arjen
First of all, this is not Putin action: it's Russia who declared war.
Russia clearly has all the responsibility for the physical damage that is being done in Ukraine.
NATO is responsible as well.
NATO didn't listen to the reasonable concerns of a neighboring country (Russia) and since when the crisis started, in 2014, didn't do anything to solve it.
All negotiations attempts by NATO were mostly a joke that didn't go in the direction of solving the crisis.
All this while saying that if Russia was to invade Ukraine they wouldn't intervene.
Thus: NATO didn't properly handle a crisis it could have handled with diplomacy. The crisis was between Russia and NATO, Ukraine is probably just a scapegoat. Not solving the crisis and ensuring you won't intervene in the war leaves Russia upset with the diplomatic outcomes and free to invade as there will be no military repercussions.
The responsibility for this invasion is partly of the west, who could have handled the question and prevented it.
Rather than insulting Russia and treating it with no respect, with such things as removing it from the G8.
@rastinza we disagree about who is at fault. NATO / Europe say "let the people of every country decide" Putin sais "Let me decide for the people of Ukraine". You tell me who is wrong.
Besides, the whole Putin story is not the history, it is a flawed interpretation by Putin of history, rooted in mix of facts and fiction from 1917 and 1922. Rubbish.
We do not live 100 years ago. We live today. And today the people of Ukraine decide that they want freedoms that Putin denies them.
@arjen
I'm not saying that I agree with the Russian vision.
NATO should still negotiate with countries that have a different opinion, even though that ideology is unacceptable in the west.
Diplomacy is needed when you disagree, not when you agree.
Alternative solutions could have been found, nobody really tried.
You can see that the way we handled this conflict brought a lot of freedom to Ukrainians: now they're getting killed in a war.
I don't see anything good in this, thus I don't see why the way NATO let this happen should be praised.
@rastinza NATO cannot stop this without starting WWW III. But that doesn't mean they should upfront do nothing and let Ukrain ppl stand in the dark!
Why it is particularly bad to give any credibility to Putin is that he blends fact and fiction to a new "history" of Russia to justify his acts. Except... This is fiction!
For background info:
"As a misreading of history, it was extreme even by the standards of Mr. Putin"
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/21/world/europe/putin-ukraine.html
@rastinza to me the only way forward is painful but requires the Russian ppl to overthrow their corrupt government. And I'm convinced this will happen.
Freedom will win from autocracy.
(And now I'm done with this thread. You're free to think otherwise but you won't manage to turn me over to a claim that it is anyone but Putin who is at fault.)
@arjen
You're free to think it as you might.
I never stated that Russia is rightly claiming Ukrainian territory.
I don't think that.
I believe Russia is behaving like a Great Power whose sphere of influence is being attacked.
There were diplomatical ways to solve this and prevent a war.
You're right, probably NATO cannot do anything anymore without starting WW III.
It could have done things to prevent the war.
Now Russia will win the war, and the sanctions will aggravate the situation.
I simply don't like how this crisis has been handled by NATO.
This is not the correct way to handle it.
I gave you several valid reasons as to why that's the case, you addressed none of those.
If you're not open to discussion then it makes no sense to continue.
@rastinza the people have no feuds with the West, it's their leaders.