Under capitalism, workers are exploited due to them being forced to exchange their labor for wages, while the capitalist class profits by appropriating the surplus value created by the workers. Workers, despite receiving wages, lack control over the means of production and decision-making, leading to an unequal power dynamic. Any worker who identifies with capitalists is suffering a form of Stockholm Syndrome, where they align with their oppressor due to systemic conditioning and societal norms.

@Radical_EgoCom

Means of production; Except anyone in a true free society (not the Statism we have now) anyone can produce value for someone else to buy, asks others to help out (or not)...

In a free society, there are only voluntary exchange of goods and services, not theft, coercion, violence, kidnapping and murder, like (I presume!) you are advocating in form of Socialism/Communism.

Instead of demanding the State to steal for you; Start a commune, labor-owned means of production and so on

@niclas @Radical_EgoCom

>>...not theft, coercion, violence, kidnapping and murder, like (I presume!) you are advocating in form of Socialism/Communism.<<

Why would you presume this? If you had just taken a quick look at the profile of the person you're replying to you would see information that contradicts this presumption. It may or may not make sense to you but it should be a clue to lead you to questions, maybe about some of your own assumptions and adopted narratives.

I mean right there in their pinned toot it explains that they believe in "rejection of both state authority and class distinctions" and "a stateless, classless society where the means of production are collectively owned and managed by the community through direct democracy, voluntary association, and decentralized decision-making."

Maybe don't be so quick to presume, at least if you're actually engaging in good faith.

@passenger

@RD4Anarchy

I try to engage in good faith. And no Socialist/Communist ever have explained how their proposed system can work without State Violence.

Scenario; Community owns means of production. I start making hand-made shoes. Are the tools I create mine, or will they be stolen? At which point does "personal property" (stuff that isn't taken by others) becomes "community property"?
How to enforce that? Coercion? No, then how?

All such details are never mentioned.

@Radical_EgoCom @passenger

@niclas @Radical_EgoCom @passenger

You can keep your tools. But if you're an asshole about it, there will probably be consequences.

@RD4Anarchy

Well, at some point those tools might make me wealthier, and you are no longer in the class-less society that you aspire so much.

"being an asshole"; Does providing value, by mutually voluntary exchange of goods and services, to others considered "being an asshole"? Because that is how the vast majority of capitalist enterprise is conducted today.

@Radical_EgoCom @passenger

@niclas @Radical_EgoCom @passenger

I'm not going to indulge your fantasy version of capitalism.

@RD4Anarchy @Radical_EgoCom @passenger

The problem isn't that capitalism or communism are good or bad. Both function perfectly fine in small egalitarian situations. The problem is in scale. They scale differently but ultimately result in the same issue of wealth disparity.

Without an answer to "how does this work at scale with evil people throughout the system" the whole discussion is moot.

@shadowsonawall @Radical_EgoCom @passenger

The emergent system that has been named capitalism was always a global system and could never have existed without state and colonialism. It did not scale up from small egalitarian situations, it was forced upon and destroyed such situations.

The problem is that capitalism is bad.

@RD4Anarchy @Radical_EgoCom @passenger in some places that happened with capitalism, in some places it happened with communism, in some places it happened with theocracy. The issue isn't in the government type. It's with people who actively *want* to exploit other people for their own personal benefit.

@shadowsonawall @RD4Anarchy @passenger
This never happened with Communism. I assume you're referring to countries like the Soviet Union, which did not achieve Communism in it's existence, nor did any of the other similar countries. The Soviet Unions' economy in particular was state capitalist with a strong Socialist leaning, but it wasn't Communist.

@Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social @shadowsonawall@qoto.org @RD4Anarchy@kolektiva.social @passenger@kolektiva.social communism literally says there has to be no state

it's a stateless, classless society

@graphite @Radical_EgoCom @passenger @RD4Anarchy which is literally impossible in the face of evil people who actively want to exploit other people.

@shadowsonawall @graphite @passenger @RD4Anarchy
It's not literally impossible. There are other means to deal with evil people without a state or centralized authority, like the method of using a decentralized organization.

@Radical_EgoCom @graphite @passenger @RD4Anarchy oh? How would you deal with evil people without a state?

@shadowsonawall @Radical_EgoCom @graphite @passenger

State has never been about dealing with "evil people". State has always been a tool of exploitation and control by a ruling elite. Your question makes no sense.

https://www.thecommoner.org.uk/the-state-our-ancient-enemy/

@RD4Anarchy @Radical_EgoCom @graphite @passenger we agree that there are evil people? How do you handle them in a system that scales past neighbors?

@shadowsonawall @Radical_EgoCom @graphite @passenger

Why does there have to be *a system* that scales past neighbors?

"Evil people" was your characterization, I don't usually think in those terms. But for sure there will be some assholes. I believe there would be far fewer assholes if we were liberated from capitalism, but there would still be some, sure.

Anyway, I could point you to various techniques societies have used for millennia but I don't have the patience to listen to bad faith bullshit about me wanting us to go back to hunter-gatherer days.

@RD4Anarchy @Radical_EgoCom @graphite @passenger I'm not trying to act in bad faith. I'm trying to help you understand the limits of what you are advocating for. We don't have to continue the discussion but if you do think about it further understand that evil isn't always about the environment/system people are in. There are a ton of people who are naturally selfish, plenty who naturally believe they are superior to others. That's a reality of our tribal biology and it has played out throughout history under every yet conceived economic system to one end: people crushing other people for their own benefit.

@shadowsonawall There are countless examples of civilizations who thrived without a central state to handle problems and « evil » people. And even if the central state system is what you choose, there are countless examples of central states where the very system was designed to limit the power of those managing it. In Athens, the penalty for populism or using your wealth to increase your political power was banishment or death. @RD4Anarchy @Radical_EgoCom @graphite @passenger

@RLetot @RD4Anarchy @Radical_EgoCom @graphite @passenger 'countless' is disingenuous but there are certainly a number of cultures where centralization was very limited/rare. The Juǀʼhoansi come to mind, probably the longest lived example of such. Generically "bushman" cultures could be argued to be the most successful in history and many/most would fall into the category of limited/rare centralization. The problem is scale. The "modern" world requires a large number of people to be working together to provide things like roads/water/sewage/etc. Once you have to coordinate beyond a tribe or two worth of people, the internal disagreements and politics spill over into external ones and our baser instincts haven't successfully been neutralized at those scales (hopefully yet).

You point to Athens as an example of a larger society which has done so. As you'll find with any larger society, they are an extremely poor example of anything resembling the above. The thirty tyrants come to mind or the fact that they were violent bullies to all of the cultures surrounding them. Honestly, Athens was a pretty disgusting culture relative to egalitarian standards.