@vriska @skells this, plus take out laws about PED because hormones are performance enhancing and genetics fuck over "natty" athletes (as if they exist) and very few sports are healthy on the competitive level so why are we concerned with their health

@why @skells unironically this

MTF hrt causes decrease in muscle mass and bone density though. not performance enhancing in any way

@why @vriska @skells I don't think people are ready to give up the fiction of winning through the power of human spirit.

@vriska I'm open minded, I struggle with the anti-biological nature of some of the arguments used by trans activists though.

If it becomes the new cultural norm to not make the distinction in sports then I'm easy, but there's something profoundly disingenuous with the schtick that a trans woman is a woman in every biological sense.

I'm not sure how much the make believe is helpful to people who are already struggling to square themselves with the dice fate has rolled for them, particularly as it often seems more about others around them pretending everything is fine, rather than confronting some of the real challenges I'm sure trans people face.

Speaking from limited experience but sincerel reflection on the issue.

@skells Since I'm not trans I don't like to talk about it a lot, like, it's not my place, I feel like, but I have been an athlete and a fan of sports my whole life, and since I have yet to see one single tangible example of a trans woman even doing WELL in sports, I guess I feel like the least we could do as a society is try to not make trans peoples lives harder in one aspect of life

@vriska @skells this is kind of an asshole thing to say, but what if they're not doing well because they weren't picked on merit.

@Moon @vriska this is also a valid point, I can see a situation where we do gender neutral teams and it turns out that either the quality of the sport degrades or we end up just having certain sports dominated by a certain gender

On the other hand, would be genuinely interesting to see men and women taking different roles in team sports on average and how that might change the complexion of the sport

When anyone else doesn't do well it's just normal stress or being in a foreign country. I'd be worried I'm forming special case reasoning, but I don't really give a fuck. The whole debate is a behavioral sink nothing productive can emerge from.

@vriska agreed, I also don't like being pressured into nodding along with stuff I feel is patent bullshit

Not that what you're saying is, seems perfectly reasonable, it's the anti-biological narrative that I take particular issue with.

But yeah, I'll leave it there cos I'm way out of my depth on sport adjudication

@vriska @skells Then you won't have women in competitive sports. Men's High School teams have beat top tier women's teams in football and basketball. If you don't understand the difference in physically ability just look up tables for judo and boxing considering only reach in win vs loss ratios. That's not even getting into weight advantages.

There is a reason we have divisions by weight and size even in men's sports. It's to avoid people dying/getting maimed as much as making it a fair fight. I mean after you watch a guy just dislocate a dozen guys' elbows before they can get their hands on them you'll be like "hey maybe we should have divisions." I think this last happened at a world games before they changed the division requirements in judo. Also if you chart division requirements you'll see they constantly have to shift the windows and split them up over time as well.

@thendrix @skells What sports do you play?

@vriska @skells I'm old now, but I used to do track, basketball, baseball, judo, and some others. I even coached girl's sports teams for a while. My entire family have long track records in sports both male and female.

@vriska @skells I will say I used to do mixed judo but only in college as an adult. As a coach I would keep a close eye on boys even sparing with girls as they don't understand how to appropriately interact with women physically, or understand differences of physical ability.

If this was for college scholarships in a real game... boys knock out each other's teeth and no one bats an eye. I wouldn't let girls get into a meat grinder like that unless it was very specific -- ie kicker on an American style football team with padding and a helmet. A 300 lb kid can do as much damage as a 300 lb man.

@thendrix @skells if women want to get their teeth knocked out by a d end they should be able to

That's equality baby

@vriska @skells MMA, boxing, etc may not be “respectable” but you could say the same about most contact sports. That weightlifter was over the hill, and you rarely see someone close to 50 in world games that’s clean. There is a reason most athletes in the games are in their 20s to 30s. I think the oldest medalist record in Olympics history is still 36.

The main issue now is in high schools were girls are losing scholarships when they have to compete with guys not even on hormones in some cases. There are about a dozen lawsuits over this batting around the US courts. Every state has different laws, but we still have Title IX for women at a federal level. Listen to one of the lawyers:

“Forcing them to compete against boys isn’t fair, shatters their dreams, and destroys their athletic opportunities,” said attorney Christiana Holcomb, according to the AP. “Having separate boys’ and girls’ sports has always been based on biological differences, not what people believe about their gender, because those differences matter for fair competition.”

“And forcing girls to be spectators in their own sports is completely at odds with Title IX, a federal law designed to create equal opportunities for women in education and athletics,” Holcomb added. “Connecticut’s policy violates that law and reverses nearly 50 years of advances for women.”

@thendrix @skells I think you misunderstood what i mean by respectable

I mean that no governmening bodies, whether it be USADA, state athletic commissions, etc would sanction events where cis men claimed to be Trans women to dominate

@vriska @skells Well, that's already happened.

@thendrix @skells name one time

@thendrix @skells name one single time a cis man pretended to be Trans to compete against women in a respectably governed sporting event

@vriska @skells I'm not going to look it up as there were a billion articles under "girl sues athletics transgender", but it's simple to see how it happens. You have a state that doesn't allow kids to take hormones, but allows students to claim gender.

I think the Terry Miller case was one, and related to the quote I gave earlier.

@thendrix @skells high school state sports are not respectable. They are politics. Always have been

@vriska @skells Then you don't want to know what happens in college and pros. :3

@thendrix @skells professional sports look like an honorable ethics committee compared to the lawless mad Max world of high school state athletic commissions

@vriska @skells Ah, pro sports are all about rigging the game for gambling and shooting up performance enhancements since as long as I can remember. Just consider how many men in baseball got caught doing these over the decades. Same for college like when MI got caught point shaving.

@thendrix @skells the NCAA is objectively evil so im not gonna argue there, but in a very nihilistic way i think the influence of gambling forces a sort of universal and standardized dishonesty

@vriska @skells Well, people want to make money. I think sports for kids should be as pure and fair as possible is my beef. That's the last time in their life they have a chance to experience that. Also kids need to be able to earn a ride to a good school.

The Olympics used to not have pros either... and I hate talking about sports politics.

@thendrix @skells oh, idealistically, that is what I would prefer too. unfortunately without some pretty major changes to the very money-based structure of our society, we probably will not see that world come to pass

@thendrix @skells I love mma and combat sports and that is actually where I agree gender segregation makes sense

@vriska @thendrix @skells What about handball?

@mrsaturday @skells @thendrix is that a cis man pretending to be Trans only to win?

@vriska @mrsaturday @skells @thendrix oh god is that being capitalized

@wetsocks @skells @mrsaturday @thendrix yeah my phone is doing that autocorrect

@vriska @skells @mrsaturday @thendrix AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WHHHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

@vriska @skells @thendrix That's Hannah Mouncey, who transitioned but is 6'3" 220 and played professionally as a man before transitioning. Noteworthy enough to get this article, and playing as pivot whose job is to set picks. 6'3" 220 and that muscular while setting picks is a hell of an advantage, one that even women that were doped out of their minds like East German athletes in the 1980s couldn't achieve.

@mrsaturday @skells @thendrix if shes actually trans i still dont think it is a Federal Issue but i can see why that is discouraging. There ARE cis women that physically dominate though, just few and far between

@vriska @skells @thendrix I know you get your freaks of nature like Brittany Griner, but she's just that, a special case. Male 6'3" 220 athletes that are built like Mouncey may not be a dime a dozen but they aren't exactly rare, either.

If testosterone is doping then having an 18+ year advantage of growing up with it while your competition didn't is doping. Taking it to try to transition is inadvertently doping. Maybe there's a better way but letting girls and women get humiliated isn't it.

@mrsaturday @vriska @skells @thendrix If WNBA players got anything close to equal pay relative to NBA players we'd start seeing 7-foot G-leaguers too stiff to make the NBA transitioning to become MVP-caliber players.

@vriska @skells @thendrix Forgot the article

https://wwos.nine.com.au/news/hannah-mouncey-helps-australia-qualify-for-handball-world-cup/38b51d8a-dc34-4795-80ce-0ed9e08554a8

@mrsaturday @skells @thendrix also post full career stats and box scores from that game

@mrsaturday @skells @thendrix just saying I could show you pictures that make Ryan Reaves look like Larry Robinson

@mrsaturday @vriska @skells I think women are better at kendo than men. That's one I always remember. Look up why and try not to whence. :/

@thendrix @vriska @mrsaturday Climbing is another interesting one, women consistently have better technique and poise than men, who have a tendency to muscle their way up (guilty as charged)