I believe in trans rights.
I have no sympathy for TERFs.
If a woman says she's a woman, or a man says he's a man, I take them at their word. End of discussion.
@atomicpoet I've no argument with that, but what about sport contests? A woman grow in a man's body have unfair advantage over other women. Isn't that will be destroy women sports entirely?
@atomicpoet I'm gonna start with last premise.
I've seen many news over the years trans women who are dominates sports like athletisim and mma, but the recent one is Lia Thomas. Her rank is about 120-ish, but when she entered women's rankings, she broke world records in women's swiming.
I'm aware that all women produce different amounts of testosterone, but, as far as my knowledge, gap between ciswomen is tolerable when we look up in sports side of the discussion.
Being a trans is not a disorder or syndrome like klinefelter, so first 2 point of yours seems strawman to me.
I don't have enough intel about ppl who don't know their chromosomes, but I'll be research in my free time.
1. Lia Thomas only won an NCAA championship last month. She did not break any records. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-data-b2044949.html
2. Again, what gender are people with XXY chromosomes?
3. If you're going to limit people with XY chromosomes from participating in women's sports, are you going to disqualify everyone with androgen insenstivity disorder?
4. Again, what are you going to do about ciswomen who naturally produce more testosterone than other women?
@atomicpoet Dude, there is a subcategory about Lia's swiming records in wikipedia. You can check that, and their referances.
Again, you can't compare disorders ans syndromes with being trans. I'm a cismale but if I were a transwoman, this will be the most insulting thing that i read to my being.
@taylan Her Wiki page says she DIDN'T break world records. On the contrary, it shows she failed to beat the NCAA record held by Kate Douglass. Right now, she's only 46th ranked nationally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lia_Thomas
@taylan Anyway, you're right that having a chromosomal disorder and being transgender isn't one and the same. But that's not the question.
Once again: if someone has an XXY chromosome, what gender are they?
@atomicpoet they considered as male, but this ppl have klinefelter syndrome and in medicine, doctors refer them as klinefelter females.
@taylan Here's my point: neither sex nor gender is a binary. There's lots of cases where the assumed binary doesn't apply.
@atomicpoet That's my bad. I can take it, yet we're still not in the same page.
Agree to disagee?
@taylan @atomicpoet considering that, their shouldn't be gender categories but T categories in sports.
Being a man or woman is not a matter of physiology.
@psylocibus @taylan Sports is never fair. When I was a kid, I wanted to be a boxer. However, I have osteogenesis imperfecta (OI), and boxing might literally kill me, so I can't do it.
People bring up bone density regarding sex, but I'm a dude with less bone density than 99% of all woman.
@psylocibus @taylan Yeah, but it forced me to work on myself in other areas. I can't play high impact sports. Okay, I'll get good at something else.
@psylocibus @taylan Anyway, here's what I know: if I took testosterone suppressors and fought a world champion female boxer, I'd be guaranteed to lose. I know this because even with my body's current testosterone production, I'd probably lose against a world champion female boxer.
@atomicpoet @taylan i think that if we forget the unfair part on sports, some people will put against all transgender rights.
@atomicpoet @taylan yes, but this one is being used in propaganda. i think it is not a good idea to defend rights in an unfair act. as @atomicpoet pointed, sports are separated because people that is born with male body have advantages physically.
“After 2 years of taking feminising hormones, the push-up and sit-up differences disappeared but transwomen were still 12% faster [while running].”
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/bjsports/55/11/577.full.pdf
This is an average. Transition is not considered complete until 5+ years. There may be value in the discussion surrounding a longer suppression requirement, but this really isn’t an issue. People make it one. The IOC requires 1 year.
@maddiefuzz @ona @atomicpoet Also, anecdotal evidence shows that there is a large spectrum of performance. Some trans women do not perform well in womens sports. Some trans men dominate over cis men. A lot of media portraying trans women competing against cis women are actually two cis women, but the people being outraged don’t look past the surface.
@maddiefuzz @ona @atomicpoet the “argument” also excludes sports where being a transwomen isnt an advantage at all, and comes with the implicit assumption that sports is only “fair” when trans people never are allowed to win (although the same people have no qualms with cis people winning due to their natural advantages)
@thornAvery @atomicpoet @maddiefuzz i am worried that this is used to radicalize people against trans.
@ona Sure, it is used to radicalize people against transgender people. But the solution is not to make concessions that don’t fit the facts just because it’s a tactically sound decision.
The things that are being used to radicalize people are just factually incorrect. It is not very smart to concede to illogical tactics, because it shows that the same strategy will work for other things. At that point the right will continue to rile up their base with misinformation about anything they’d like, because conceding to them shows them it works with little resistance.
Sadly, their tactic seems to be working, but fighting with facts is better than not.
If you concede to things when you have no reason to other than you think it will accomplish your goal more easily, you can easily find yourself making more and more concessions. @thornAvery @atomicpoet
@maddiefuzz I often bring up facts -- just as I did in this thread. Almost always, the people who "debate" with me concede I am right about the particularities (in this case re: Lia Thomas), and then say "Let's agree to disagree". Hence, they double down. That's because facts themselves are not persuasive. https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/words-matter/201810/why-people-ignore-facts @ona @thornAvery
@atomicpoet I actually completely agree, and I know that facts are not very persuasive.
I may have not been very eloquent, but I was trying to walk a thin line with my last post. Facts may not be very effective, but conceding on an issue with the goal of them “leaving you alone”or “winning the bigger issue” is not the way. They will move their objectives to meet you at your next point of resistance.
I’m not sure what is a more effective way to resist is, but I think fighting with facts is at least slightly more effective than conceding and retreating. @ona @thornAvery
@maddiefuzz I totally get you.
Personally, I have a conundrum. I am not part of the trans community. Yet, I also believe it's important to hear trans voices. Thus, I feel that in my little corner of the Internet, it's important to say, "I believe in trans rights."
Am I taking up valuable space to express this opinion? I don't know. Personally, I'd rather just like and boost messages from the trans community (provided they are nice people).
🤔
@atomicpoet Personally, I don’t think you’re taking up valuable space by saying that. You’re showing that you’re an ally. I also think it’s appropriate for you to defend the trans community in the ways that you have, using empirical information.
I think that the point where it would become an issue is if you tried to speak about trans experiences.
A lot of trans people, myself included, feel exhausted dealing with these kinds of arguments. A lot falls on us to fight this. I welcome allies who are willing to assist.
Of course, this is just my opinion on it, and other trans people may feel differently.
@ona @thornAvery
@ona @atomicpoet I can support them in their cause, socially. But demanding things can put trans beings on a pedestal... I've to speak with my reason.
@taylan @ona @atomicpoet J.K. Rowling tried to pass her bigotry off as “just questioning” at first too, with some of the same talking points you’re using.
@pinata1138 @taylan @atomicpoet sorry, i am not english and if you use local references i don't understand. can you explain easier, please? 😃
@ona J.K. Rowling is a famous British author who is known for her transphobia.
@pinata1138 thanks
was your comment for me o for the other 2?
if it is for me, i have not problem with the gender that a person has, but i am very worried that this on sports is getting transformed in hate speech.
@ona I was talking to Taylan. I didn’t see anything resembling transphobia from you, as far as I can tell you’re on my side here. ❤️
@taylan People often bring this up, and that argument is flawed.
1. Some people are born with XXY chromosomes. What gender are they?
2. Some people are born with XY chromosomes but have Androgen Insensitivity Disorder, so are therefore born as women
3. Most people don't know their chromosomes
4. Some ciswoman naturally produce higher amounts of testosterone than other women
5. Where is this trans domination of women's sports?