I heard a mention of #ConorMcGregor, so I went to read a bit about him, and watched a few minutes of a couple #UFC fights — including that knockout 13 seconds into the match.
Change my mind: if you enjoy watching #MMA, there's something wrong with you.
It is brutal. Am I too sensitive?
@tripu I would not say too sensitive, but not precise enough.
"something wrong with you" is a pretty broad term. I find it problematic to value brutal fights, even if they are fought by rules. But the way you say it, i could agree or disagree depending on the interpretation.
I think paying or encouraging someone to do things that cause severe injury should be a crime. This shit and boxing and American football should not exist.
You're more likely to suffer a life-changing accident driving or cycling, or doing a number of other daily normal activities, than training to be a professional fighter. And of course you've mentioned smoking, and there's alcohol. Perhaps going to loud discos each weekend can render you deaf in the near-term. Where do you draw the line?
>"Where do you draw the line?"
That's the $64,000 question. I'm not sure where the line is, but I'm not sure that eventually finding that line is impossible, either.
@Pat
I can't imagine a line that doesn't include things most normal people would want to do for fun.
Now the likes of #MarkZuckerberg and #MarcAndreessen are contributing to making #MMA and #UFC even “cooler”:
> _“I was […] asked whether I consider Mark and #Elon to be role models to children in their embrace of #fighting, and I said, enthusiastically, yes. And I further recommended to the audience that they **have their children trained in MMA**, as my wife and I are. **#Kids as young as eight and maybe even younger** are totally capable of learning both the striking and grappling dimensions of the sport.”_
Sure, let's have an eight-year-old practicing a “sport” for which the ultimate display of prowess is being able to instantly kill another person by kicking their face. You can try to sweeten and disguise the discipline as much as you want: anyone training will know what exactly is at the apex, who are the best MMA fighters, and what it is that they do when they compete.
> _“MMA training is likely **the best path for widespread gains in physical #fitness**, particularly for **#children**.”_
Seriously? The _best_ path? Better than weight training, indoor rowing, tennis or basketball? Better than running, swimming or cycling — or the combination of the three? Andreessen is eager to point out that “MMA is the original combat sport” and that “it was introduced to the actual Greek Olympic Games in 648 BC”. Well, how about _running_? That is “the original sport”, and has an even longer history!
https://www.thefp.com/p/marc-andreessen-musk-zuckerberg-cage-fight
@tripu @ImperfectIdea @Pat I must say those do so much damage in other ways, i cannot see how this makes any relevant difference.
I explained here the huge difference I see between sports where injuries or pain may occur and are lamented by everybody, and an activity which has injury and pain as its main goal and as such are celebrated:
https://qoto.org/@tripu/109879274672642453
/cc @ImperfectIdea @Pat
@tripu
There are more deaths during professional cycling and running than professional MMA, and definitely more during amateur cycling and running than amateur MMA. That means a sport where deaths are accidental causes more deaths than a sport where the goal is supposedly to kill. The same can be said about football, Formula 1, and a few other sports. MMA is actually quite safe if we look at it this way, no?
@ImperfectIdea @tripu @Pat From the top of my head, i would name quality of safety measures and prevalence of doping as possible confounding factors.
Do you have an approximation of those?
@admitsWrongIfProven
No, I don't, but I'd say cycling deaths are mostly caused by the road or an obstacle meeting the cyclist, not much room for confounding 😄
@tripu @Pat
@ImperfectIdea @tripu @Pat That is confusing, do you say obstacles meeting cyclists could not be padded, so safety measures cannot be taken?
@admitsWrongIfProven
Not in open roads...
@tripu @Pat
Good point. But the fair way to measure that would be to look at QALYs lost (or gained) per time spent practicing each activity, not absolute no. of deaths per sport.
Also, even if more cyclists or runners than fighters died, I suspect all cyclists (pro or amateur) clock way, way more hour×person in a year around the globe than all MMA practitioners do, so the relative risk isn't that clear.
And also, if the worst threat to amateur cyclists is being run over by a car or crashing into a lamplight… well, the gist of the sport is preserved if one cycles on dirt roads, on tracks, or even on a static bike indoors. In that sense, it's not cycling that kills people, but doing so on public roads with traffic and obstacles (you can't say the same about the intrinsic dangers of MMA or F1).
It's unfortunate that roads aren't safer, and I celebrate cyclists like yourself who combine exercise and convenience daily, but those risks feel to me qualitatively different from the risk of being killed by another person who purposefully hit you as fast and as hard as they could.
Again, I'm all for adults doing whatever they want. I just decry the MMA ethos, and maintain there are plenty of activities far healthier and safer for kids.
@tripu
I agree, it's not so simple to compare consequences. But then I'd ask you to abandon arguments around MMA's goal being "to instantly kill another person by kicking their face". It just sounds sensationalistic and appealing to emotion. No one actually kills in MMA, and no one is even *thinking* of killing. Many strikes are banned to avoid this risk; fighters restrain themselves; most wins are not by KO; fights are stopped. The goal is definitely not "killing"...
@ImperfectIdea @tripu @Pat
I would think you two (tripu and imperfectidea) have different views.
Tripu seems to see the fans looking for violence, imp seems to look at professionals that both exercise the body and restrain the mind.
Both are valid, i agree with tripu that there sure are people with unhealthy inclinations, i also agree with imp that there are those that practice (and maybe watch) violent sports to achieve some restrained, reasonable goal.
And if more people die doing nonviolent sports (by percent), i would say "you cannot secure streets" and similar arguments sound hollow. It's a question of effort, which is a question of necessity.
@tripu
...any more than the goal of a marathon is reaching Athens.
Comparing consequences, every sport has injuries and benefits, even in amateur levels, and we could try to quantify and qualify these. MMA and combat sports have other benefits, also difficult to value, like improving self-confidence in a way that other sports can't, and real world self-defence especially for women. This kind of debate is more interesting to me.
@tripu @ImperfectIdea @Pat I'm not talking about sports, i'm talking about their general activities. Zuck/Facebook with inciting hatred, Musk/Tesla with loss of life via unscrupulous business practices.
The (monetized) sports issue is valid in its own, but pales in comparison to the actual loss of life. It would be like criticizing a murderer for stealing a bottle of water.