tripu @tripu@social.cleverlibre.org
Technologist, Spaniard, male, 42
Joined May 2020
* [HTML5 Boilerplate](https://html5boilerplate.com/) for the simple ones (and [Meld](https://meldmerge.org/) and some diff scripts to be able to “patch” the site when there's a new version of HTML5 Boilerplate)
* [Docusaurus](https://docusaurus.io/) for the blog and the documentation-like sites
* [`npx light-server`](https://www.npmjs.com/package/light-server) for local development with hot reloading
* Mostly GitLab Pages for hosting
What is your criterion? Why did you leave out Canarians, Riojans, Ubetenses, Ceutans, Rascafrienses or Torrejoneros?
> _“Using violence and calling for a coup, as we see every day in Ferraz, is illegal”_
👍
Tell me: what are the “various ethnic groups” you see in Spain?
> _“Bildu wasn't the main point”_
I'll tell you why we ended up here.
For you, “the important thing is, that the […] fascists are kept out of the government”, and you think that “a fascist party […] must be fought at all costs” because “ fascists can't [be] stopped by democratic means only”.
…and yet you're defending this alliance of PSOE with parties EH Bildu, ERC and Junts — at least one of which is at least clearly fascistoid. From [my old essay](https://tripu.medium.com/referendum-e53331ddf841):
> _“Spain knows, first hand, what fascism is. Advocating [for] national unity is not fascism. […] What is fascist is trying to silence dissenters, banning certain ideas, using violence, prosecuting minorities, expecting groupthink and attacking the individual. Fascism is in the means.”_
Add nativism and nationalism to the mix, as I wrote earlier.
(@gasull, this 👆 is why I'm calling some of the separatists “fascists”.)
If I can make you see that EH Bildu and their friends in Catalonia share many of those traits with the fascists that you so much despise, you will surely apply the same harsh words to them, and join me in condemning PSOE for associating with them. As you said, they “must be fought at all costs”!
> _“You didn't answer my request for sources for your claim, that Bildu still supports terrorist actions”_
Otegi, main leader of EH Bildu and its previous incarnations since 1994, has been condemned [at least three times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaldo_Otegi): for kidnapping an executive of Michelin, for glorifying terrorism, and for running an illegal party (deemed illegal [for good reasons, such as encouraging citizens to join ETA, paying tribute to terrorists, and having many candidates who were members of ETA](https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herri_Batasuna#Ilegalizaci%C3%B3n)); and [has been five times in prison](https://www.elmundo.es/pais-vasco/2021/10/23/6173fde021efa08d208b462c.html).
No less than [23 leaders of his party were jailed for 7 years for collaborating with ETA](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/172539.stm). As recently as last year, EH Bildu [was paying public tribute, with public funds, to convict killers](https://www.libertaddigital.com/espana/2022-08-26/eh-bildu-y-las-juventudes-de-sortu-homenajean-a-los-terroristas-de-eta-en-ibarra-6926129/). In this year's general election, at least [44 of the candidates of Bildu were people sentenced for being members of ETA](https://elpais.com/espana/2023-05-09/covite-denuncia-que-44-candidatos-de-eh-bildu-fueron-condenados-por-pertenecer-a-eta.html).
They always glorified the goons and killers, and never condemned the violence of ETA, those 800+ dead, and many, many more injured, bullied, or expelled from the Basque Country, or the immense material losses and terror on the streets for decades.
In the last few years, some of them have occasionally [made noises in roughly the right direction](https://twitter.com/Lanoche_24h/status/1143979148865441792), but that's easy now that ETA is defeated and gone, and actions speak louder than words, so I leave it to you and your conscience to decide if EH Bildu is a peaceful, liberal, democratic party or not.
tripu
boosted
Un señor que preside una asociación de personas que creen en la magia y seres imaginarios, duda de la veracidad de victimas reales que sufrieron abusos de su organizacion.
We have so many open threads. I think you are not trying to answer my questions or evaluate my counterarguments. I'll try once more.
> _“It's not my understanding that Bildu wants to deport everyone who is not basque. They don't want to eliminate the rights of minorities like LGBTQI* people.”_
Bildu wants to kick everyone who ~~is not~~ _they don't consider_ Basque. That's not only nativistic and nationalistic (two hallmarks of fascism), but also nonsensical, for several reasons:
* The Basque Country is tiny (it has less population than the city of Madrid).
* It's not a separate “ethnic group” (Spain doesn't have “a problem with its different ethnic groups”, as you said; it's largely a matter of language and finance).
* It's just impossible to determine who is “a Basque” and who isn't: someone born and raised in the Canary Islands, the descendant of generations of Canarians, can move to Bilbao tomorrow and become, on paper, as “Basque” as anyone — and vice versa. And in case you're wondering, fluency in Basque is irrelevant: there are descendants of generations of Basques, living in the land, who don't speak the language either.
To try to achieve that, Bildu has enabled and encouraged violence _for decades_; not only towards “Spaniards”, but also towards fellow Basques who dared to think differently (another big tick in the “fascism” checklist). Some of its leaders are convict terrorists. You asked me about “some sources to verify that”: that's vox populi, check the newspaper archives for the last 65 years, I guess.
Apart from “all Spaniards” and “the wrong kind of Basques”, Bildu has been a bully, often a violent one, towards the military, the police, the Civil Guard, the Monarchy, and anyone they perceive to be on “the right” — among others. Do those “minorities” not qualify, like “LGBTQI* people”?
> _“The ‘solution’ of Vox and parts of PP would be to simply oppress the seperatist movements”_
Separatist ideas, speech and parties are fully legal. If by “oppress” you mean “prosecute with legal means”, then yes, I agree with those parties (and a few others) that one ought to “oppress” whatever is illegal. By definition. Unilateral separatism outside the law, of the kind #Puigdemont et al perpetrated in 2017, is illegal and should be “oppressed”. Just like we “oppress” extrajudicial killings, paedophilia, or the construction of a nuclear reactor in your backyard, and so many things. I don't think that “the ‘it's illegal’ and ‘it's against the constitution’ argument is a very weak one”, and in fact I don't understand how anyone could defend the rule of law negating those premises.
> _“Fascists are ruthless murderers. History shows that fascists can't stopped by democratic means only.”_
On that, we agree.
> _“Above the national law, there is international law, which grants the right of self determination”_
Self-determination does not apply to the Catalan case. I think you didn't read [my essay](https://tripu.medium.com/referendum-e53331ddf841). Check bogus argument no. 10, “they’re calling a referendum because self-determination is a basic human right”.
> _“I don't get why it should be ethical wrong if Catalunya wants to choose its own faith”_
I agree. There's nothing inherently wrong in a country splitting in two. That's not the question we're debating.
@admitsWrongIfProven Thank you, appreciated!
> _“Our assesment [of Vox party leader Santiago Abascal] was pretty simple”_
That is part of the problem with this video. Nothing like this is simple.
[7/7]
> _“Spain is a relatively small country…”_
It's not. That's a very US-centric thing to say. Spain is a _relatively large_ country: out of the 195 UN states, Spain ranks [51st by area](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_area#Countries_and_dependencies_by_area) and [30th by population](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population#Sovereign_states_and_dependencies_by_population). ie, Spain is among the 27% largest countries by land mass, and among the 16% most populous ones.
> _“…in Western Europe”_
Within Western Europe Spain is definitely _not_ a relatively small country: out of [approximately ten countries considered to be “Western Europe”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe#Population), Spain is the second largest (only France has more area), and the third most populous.
[6/7]
> _“You [Vox party leader Santiago Abascal] are the leader of the opposition”_
False. The unofficial title “leader of the opposition” has always been [“the leader of the largest party in the Congress of Deputies not within the government“](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leader_of_the_Opposition_(Spain)). That is PP's president Alberto Núñez Feijóo since April last year.
[5/7]
> _“So one side has to follow the letter of the law, or you go to jail. The other side can do whatever it wants. So there's no more rule of law in Spain, as you're describing it.”_
I'll call hyperbole again. These political developments are alarming and will have very bad consequences, but the rule of law is in place. Spain is [one among only 24 “full democracies” in the world](https://pages.eiu.com/rs/753-RIQ-438/images/DI-final-version-report.pdf) and has a [“high state of peace”](https://www.visionofhumanity.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/GPI-2023-Web.pdf), and I doubt what is happening now will put the country in an entirely different category.
[4/7]
> _“The left in Spain is trying to take over the country extralegally…”_
While I personally agree with this statement, people outside Spain should know that the question of whether the proposed amnesty would be legal or not is a subject of very heated debate here, and that there are law experts in both sides of the argument.
> _“…pardoning terrorists, offering amnesty to terrorists…”_
That is hyperbole. The crimes that would be erased are mostly non-violent ones: rebellion, sedition and misuse of public funds. Those charges are grave, but nobody here is talking of pardoning “terrorists”. The most charitable interpretation is that Carlson is confusing public servants in Catalonia who were condemned for the events of 2017 with the long history or Basque terrorism by the ETA and their political enablers.
> _“…in order to take complete control”_
Another hyperbole for effect. “To take complete control” invokes the image of an autocrat dismantling the judiciary and the legislative, ignoring the results of elections in a Banana republic, or staging a coup d'état. Think what you want about the deal between the PSOE, Bildu and the Catalan separatists, pardoning the debts of the government of Catalonia, and the proposed amnesty law. I am firmly against all that, but all this was done by Pedro Sánchez so that he could secure a (legal) parliamentary majority to be (legally) elected President for a regular four-year mandate with the usual powers — not “to take complete control” of the country.
[3/7]
> _“When a couple of weeks ago the founder of the populist Vox party was shot in the face…”_
While factually true, the context makes this sound as if the attempt to kill former vice president of the European Parliament Alejo Vidal-Quadras was linked to internal Spanish politics. Instead, very soon after the incident both the police _and the victim himself_ [pointed to the Iranian regime as the most probable culprit](https://www.politico.eu/article/spain-alejo-vidal-quadras-attempted-murder-terrorist-incident-court/). It's not like politicians opposed to Pedro Sánchez are being shot on the streets here in Spain.
[2/7]
If you _really_ need to get your news about what's going on in 🇪🇸 #Spain (#PedroSánchez, #Puigdemont, #Catalonia, #amnesty, #amnistía) from none other than #TuckerCarlson, [by all means do](https://twitter.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1725556767365443753).
But please read this short thread as preparation — for context, nuance and balance:
[1/7]
A belated happy #InternationalMensDay to everyone!
tripu
boosted
> _“You want to get into an intellectual throw down?”_
I want to learn. And to inform or educate when I can.
> _“If you throw another lazy logical fallacy out there”_
For being so “seasoned” you're failing the basics. I asked two short and specific questions. None of them included presuppositions or even subordinate clauses that could be used to smuggle implied causality or to take anything from granted. There were no “logical fallacies” there. That's a fact.
> _“Your handle ‘trip you’ -- as in to trip up another's reasoning”_
Failed again. My nickname comes from Spanish (my mother tongue). Long story. It's OK.
> _“Would you like to try again and actually address the substantive issue?”_
I swear that's what I was trying to do. I'll try again, from another angle (but addressing the same issues I honestly see in your reasoning):
I fit the definition you used, to the letter. I (and most people I know) “use money to invest in trade and industry for profit in accordance with the principles of capitalism”. I (and most people I know) are “wealthy” ([my household in particular is in the richest 2% of the global population](https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i)).
My most valuable possesion is a car (the only one my wife and I have). We don't own a house. We are both regular employees at regular companies; not founders or executives. We have two kids.
Most people I know find themselves in similar circumstances.
According to your own definition, we all are capitalists.
Am I right so far?
/cc @thesquirrelfish
So Justin Bieber, U2, Jay Leno or Gloria Steinem aren't capitalists?
/cc @LeftistLawyer
Technologist, Spaniard, male, 42
Joined May 2020
