@thor

This is generally my impression. A lot of addiction, too, which is why I favor making addiction as inexpensive and easy as possible.

At least localizes the problem.

I don't know how to save everyone. It's not in nature's plan at least.

I hope things work out for your sister.

@amerika @thor

It has been said many times we are losing the war on drugs.

If you legalise supply you control not only the supply but the purity and strength, that way you know what you are getting.

10mg of paracetamol from a pharmacy should be just that for example but in this case applied to I guess Heroin and cocaine among others.

Then you work on reducing the dependency, a t the same time as that try and deal with the mental health or other issues that have caused the addiction

Of course this also means that these substances can be tax, so lets tax them and put 100 percent of that in to providing free detox, mental health and other support.

As with other problems, it is fixable if we are prepared to be tough enough to have these hard discussions and make hard decisions as to how to solve the issues involved.

@zleap @thor

I oppose legalization and favor decriminalization.

Our goal is not to make drug use safe, only to make it less destructive.

In my view, the markets do a good job of regulating quality.

I also have very little faith in detox programs.

It's all up to the user, and most who quit do it on their own.

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@amerika @thor

I think the solution will come from a variety of different ideas, but the agreement is the current idea is simply not working.

@zleap @thor

The best solutions are often the simplest.

Decriminalization avoids endorsing drug use, but also stops penalizing people for being addicted.

It lets nature sort of the issue.

A functional heroin addict would do fine under this order, and at least with morphine, this was once often the case.

@amerika @zleap @thor A/B testing for decriminalization happened recently with the 'white death' of opiate abuse. The people who say that Prohibition worked (because it suppressed alcohol deaths in much of the country, and who cares about any other consequences?) probably would argue that the high death count of opiate abuse shows that it's bad policy. Or more generally, A/B testing for substance abuse is still ongoing with the completely legal sugar and corn epidemic.

If you say that the current policy on heroin "isn't working", and then change it, just be prepared for there being measurably a lot more heroin deaths, and then a lot of people saying that, actually, these deaths mean that the old policy was "working" after all. Drug discussion is always so utopian ("legalize weed! It has NO DOWNSIDES AT ALL"). If you can't harden your heart against a woman's sob story about how sugar legalization led to her fit and handsome son turning himself into a pig and then dying of it, and say that sugar prohibition's consequences were worse and that her son's real vice was a lack of self control, then you're just poisoning the well for other people who would take this position.

@apropos @amerika @thor

I think and the end of the day it comes down to education, we need to start at school and look at the effects of drugs / sugar / alcohol not from a legal perspective but how they actually impact our bodies

Aimed with science backed information make our own informed choices, but knowing that our own choices have consequences. ;

Teach people they are responsible for their actions, what ever those actions are, ride a bike in to someone and injure them, take responsibility rather than blaming the other person, if someone steps right out in front of you and you just collide, then perhaps they need to take some responsibility.

of course at times things are no ones fault, it is just an accident.

@apropos @amerika @thor

From what I understand prohibition just drove alcohol underground,

@zleap @amerika @thor that's the usual understanding but just looking at opiate and sugar abuse, wouldn't you expect some other consequences even without knowing that "Prohibition worked, actually" people exist?

One exchange is:
>Fisher used retail alcohol prices to demonstrate that Prohibition was working by raising the price and decreasing the quantity produced. However, his price quotations also revealed that the Iron Law of Prohibition was at work. The price of beer increased by more than 700 percent, and that of brandies increased by 433 percent, but spirit prices in creased by only 270 percent, which led to an absolute in crease in the consumption of spirits over pre‐​Prohibition levels.
The opposite happened in Britain a few centuries ago: (French) wine was heavily taxed, so the British just moved to beer.

@apropos @thor @zleap

In my view, the War on Some Drugs (WoSD) has decreased some consumption.

Among poorer areas and the young however, it's easy to find drugs.

Would it be worse if the drugs were decriminalized or legalized? It's hard to tell, but likely more people would use them, but I'd say for a shorter length of time.

Much of the appeal of drugs is their bad boy status. Without that, most would move on to something else in their lives.

@apropos @thor @zleap

I wonder how many industries developed simply because of taxation or other government interference.

Headhunters (recruiters) for example.

Or even real estate agents.

@apropos @thor @zleap

Part of the problem with opiates was that doctors prescribed them.

In my view, there are no Utopias. Substances, like gambling and sex, will always bring problems.

The point is to ensure that normal, healthy people are protected from the onslaught of human decay as much as possible.

@zleap @apropos @thor

Fentanyl is in medical use. I don't know if it was prescribed. A lot of painkillers like oxy were however.

@amerika @zleap @apropos @thor I'm also pretty sure it's not prescribed. The issue with it is that it's EXTREMELY powerful and the effective dose is very very tiny and it's also relatively cheap by weight. It's very easy to overdose on and drug manufacturers will use it to add cheap extra kick to whatever else they're selling in powder or pill form with predictable consequences.

@dew_the_dew @apropos @thor @zleap

This was interesting:

"Fentanyl should not be used during impaired consciousness or coma, as significant decreases in respiratory drive may lead to adverse intracranial effects from carbon dioxide retention."

I know opiates kill through respiratory failure, and wonder if this is linked.

Like breathing into a paper bag to end panic, but... permanently.

@amerika @apropos @thor @zleap Look at all the dosages in mcg though how easy would it be to fuck up your measurements in a basement drug lab.
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