@stux That is a fallacy of economics.. wealth is not a fixed quantity, things that provide utility cause wealth to be created (and can also be destroyed)... so no the money doesnt have to "come from somewhere".

@freemo Indeed! And that's why we have money! and that's (mostly) regulated and checked, we may don't like it but the chances of a bank owner just taking off is less likeley

Every fool can start a coin or exchange or crypto bank, gather resources and be gone or whatever with almost no consequences because we lack the rules

With crypto one can get away with a LOT more in comparison to "dollar crime" for example

@stux Yea the fact that you have **privacy** with your money with crypto is a feature not a bug... Crypto is like the firefox/librewolf of money where normal cash is like the microsoft edge/chrome of money.

@freemo no, in this case it's not a feature but a bug in the "system"

It's not right people can get away with scamming millions upon millions

Why are people like Jake Paul not in jail? They are pretty known for all the shit they do

@stux Thats like arguing against encryption because bad people can use it to hide what they do. and some people might use that hide bad things.

Its hard for me to see why you think encryption should be allowed, when it can and is used to hide people doing bad things, but privacy and self-control over my money shouldnt be allowed for the same reasons?

@freemo No, that's not close

Encryption is used so widely for so many things so prob 99% of it's usage is for good

and encyption doesn't cause millions damage each day over and over

there should be regulation for big corps like FTX and other exchanges or busineses that evolve around crypto, not the avergage person..

how can you be against setting up a system that prevents massive theft?

@stux

> Encryption is used so widely for so many things so prob 99% of it's usage is for good

Ok so your saying we should adopt crypto currency and have it replace 99% of money cause then you can say its used for 99% of things and therefore mostly used for good?

Hey its your logic man im just rolling with it :)

> and encyption doesn't cause millions damage each day over and over

Sure it does... everytime someone does something illegal that costs millions in damage, anything, if they didnt have encryption then they wouldnt have been able to do it because everything they say or do can be listened in on... you cant cause millions in damage if you arent allowed to have any secrets...

You think those huge companies that cause tens of millions in **intentional** damage to society would be able to get away with it if they didnt have encryption?

Wait regulation only should apply to big companies? No, it should apply to everyone.

I never said I was against regulation. I said I was against your view of cryptocurrency as a bad thing, in particular that having privacy around my money is bad... regulate all you want, but do so without infringing on my right to privacy.

> how can you be against setting up a system that prevents massive theft?

I am not, so long as you dont try to take away my freedom of privacy to do it... and so long as you dont prevent me from deciding myself how I want to trade with other people.

@freemo @stux forensics of money transfer is much easier on the blockchain than with cash.

Don't confuse electronic dollars with physical dollars.

Cold, hard cash is still the best bet if you want to avoid having your transactions tracked

@RandomDamage

The problem is cash has rules.. try to take out large chunks or deposit large chunks and any reputable bank must report you. I think thats the crux of the problem.. not the forensics.. just the fact that governments cant control the flow of money anymore at all.

@stux

@freemo @stux the rules only apply when interacting with licensed banks, and vary from country to country

So buying a new car with cash at a major brand dealer in the US would be a problem if you can't back up the source, but there's lots of opportunites for money to flow that don't involve banks at all, and those can't be traced unless someone reports them

Unlike cryptocurrency where every transaction is logged in a permanent record, and all an investigator needs to do is follow the records

@RandomDamage

Sure lots of ways you can spend money illicitly... But int he USA the rule is above a certain amount then the transaction must be recorded.

@stux

@freemo @stux which only matters when dealing with a law abiding business.

That's why the early 20th Century mobsters were mainly caught on tax evasion rather than most of their other crimes

Because even cash is somewhat traceable if you can get people to testify to transactions

But with cryptocurrency evey transaction is recorded, which makes the flow of money observable and greatly reduces the number of people you need to flip for a successful investigation

@RandomDamage

Indeed.. the problem is a law abiding business int he usa,a s far as i know, wouldnt need to report crypto transactions in the same way largely because it would be impossible to know if you have one big buyer vs lots of small buyers due to the anonymity.

@stux

@freemo @stux the reporting rules mainly apply to banks, and the source of the transaction is irrelevant to the reporting rules

A transaction split among a dozen sources that triggers reporting requirements gets reported.

@freemo There are soo many examples where people still walk while they have commited such larges scams again and again..

If one where to do that with "direct" investment for example the gov would be on your ass in no time

@freemo @stux eh. All currency has an origination point.

When you convert BTC to USD, those dollars originate from some source, whether it's the federal reserve or a bank granting credit

It might seem like it materializes out of thin air when it's banks granting credit, but it can disappear back into thin air just as easily if it doesn't have real wealth backing it (land or commodities for this purpose, labor for the larger definition)

@RandomDamage

As someone who has dealt with the math behind economic models quite a bit I am very careful with my words... Look at what I said again:

> That is a fallacy of economics.. wealth is not a fixed quantity, things that provide utility cause wealth to be created (and can also be destroyed)

Notice I start by talking about wealth, and then only connect that to money/currency... that is very important. Money is not wealth, but it has a relationship to wealth.

Wealth is created (its not out of nowhere though).. the creation of wealth effects the value of money, which over time will usually effect its quantity should there be someone printing it..

The wealth is the important part, the physical amount of currency not so much.

@stux

@freemo @stux I understand this perfectly well, and thought I had addressed it adequately

"cryptocurrency" is generally a dollar derivative asset, so at least 2 steps away from any real wealth

In my estimation that's one of the things that makes it so volatile. That and the immense amount of fraud on the cybercurrency exchanges relative to national currencies and regular security exchanges