My point of view about the situation in #Spain (/cc @admitsWrongIfProven):
> _“The gouvernment that brought you good things for the people”_
Err… sure. What government does not bring at least some “good things for the people”?
> _“I heard nothing negative about them in terms of caring for the people”_
Not sure I understand. One does not need to hear anything specific to know that in a democracy of ~48M people millions of voters think that the government is not “caring for the people” properly, much, or at all.
In this case: I think this government “didn't care” much for the youth (transfers of wealth from younger generations to boomers in the form of public pensions, massive public debt and a two-tier job market), for men (a divisive strand of feminism), for women (ditto, cf trans issues), for immigrants (several scandals about that), for entrepreneurs and freelancers (populist rhetoric against wealth and corporations), for the middle class (tax hikes), for students (our PISA scores are shameful), for the Sahrawis (they abandoned them to appease Morocco), or for truth and science (too many examples to cite).
> _“The only violence i heard of is […] not the catalans”_
There has been very little violence from any side, fortunately. (But lots of hatred.)
The crimes that will be erased now are mostly non-violent ones: rebellion, sedition and misuse of public funds.
> _“An amnesty seems a good idea to keep the peace”_
Roughly half of the population here disagrees. Recent History has proven otherwise: the more that institutions have appeased the separatists and made concessions to them, the more radical and defiant they grew.
> _“Fascists will never keep peace”_
I agree. Those whose crimes will be erased, those who signed the deal with #PedroSánchez, are fascists. As you say, they will never keep peace. For years they have been trying to silence dissenters, banning certain ideas, appealing to nativist ideas, encouraging hatred towards other Spanish regions, attacking minorities and the individual, expecting groupthink, bending the facts and distorting History, and glorifying the idea of a nation.
@tripu @admitsWrongIfProven
Who are the fascists is very clear. Those who show Swastikas and the fascist salute, show symbols of the Franco regime and sing songs from the fascist "blue division". These things happens daily during the protests against the amnesty.
@Haydar
What do you call the people trampling over the Constitution, the rule of law, the separation of powers, the sovereignty of the people, and basic concepts of honesty and decency?
@ImperfectIdea @tripu @admitsWrongIfProven if you are referring to the amnesty law: Amnesty is a perfect legal instrument in a democracy. Modern Spain was founded on the base of an Amnesty law (1977). There were several cases of "tax amnesty". Of course, right wing politicians do not question those amnesties, because it was their people who have benefited from them.
The real reason why the right-wing is protesting is that they lost the elections and now want to divide society.
> _“Amnesty is a perfect legal instrument in a democracy”_
In _what_ democracy? Our Constitution doesn't even mention the idea. Lots of lawyers and entire associations of judges, left and right, say it would be illegal. Libertarians say so. A few magnates of the PSOE are saying so even today. Pedro Sánchez _himself_ and lots of his sycophants at the very top (eg, ministers) said there could be no amnesty because it'd be against the law and the Constitution _until a few months ago_.
> _“Modern Spain was founded on the base of an Amnesty law”_
Very different circumstances. That amnesty was widely understood to be “the last one”. An amnesty was necessary to start from scratch, simply because there was no rule of law at the time (it was autarchy emanating from a coup d'etat).
> _“There were several cases of ‘tax amnesty’”_
Yes. Two by the PSOE and one by the PP. Very different in nature to what is being announced now. And at least one of them was declared illegal by the Constitutional Court.
So what?
> _“The real reason why the right-wing is protesting is that they lost the elections and now want to divide society”_
It's not “the right-wing” protesting. Puigdemont's own party is right-of-centre. The Basque separatists of the PNV, who are _not_ protesting, are definitely in the right. Roughly half the country is opposed — and so is part of the moderate right, the centre, and lots of intellectuals and judges.
Pardoning criminals and supporting secession is, _by definition_, more divisive than applying the law and defending the unity of the country.
@admitsWrongIfProven
They are not "leaving", they're deciding unilaterally what the country is - a country that belongs to all Spanish citizens. And they're doing so illegally and immorally.
You suggest we want the Catalans to stay because they're not aggressive, and the rest are? You do realise many Catalans also don't want independence, right? Do they want to stay with the "aggressive" Spaniards? Are you ok?
@ImperfectIdea @tripu @Haydar I simply do not have the information necessary to decide that.
The thread has given me some additional hints, but i am far from understanding what is going on.
What i want is for people to get along and live their best life. Nations, i see not how this concept would benefit people, it just brought pain and suffering for all i know.
But to improve, we would have to put something better there. I do not know what that could be, and i think the people there would know better - so i do need to take myself out of this.
Best to you :-)
@ImperfectIdea @admitsWrongIfProven @tripu
So, why not make a referendum? Surely there is a legal way. Just saying "it's illegal" doesn't help to solve the problem.
If someone wants to leave, then holding him is only possible by force - sometimes only violent force (that's why there is a war going on in from Turkey occupied redions of Kurdistan for many decades)
@Haydar @ImperfectIdea @tripu Generally, many people suffer. If a part of one of these contrieved, forced partitions would do better with a part splitting?
Who knows. The whole concept is problematic, partitioning humans into countries? Sounds suspect to me.
I don't have the details to speak about the specific people involved. I just hope everyone can have a nice life. I find states a bit missing on delivering improvement, but what do i know.
@Haydar
I'm all for a referendum in which all Spanish citizens participate, not just Catalans, as long as it's Constitutional - the Constitution would have to be reformed for this first, and it would require a qualified and wide majority.
The 2017 "referendum" was illegal. The amnesty literally *buys* 7 votes so Sánchez can stay in power after losing the popular vote. Sánchez said up until election day that amnesty wouldn't happen. How does that sit with you?
@admitsWrongIfProven @tripu
@ImperfectIdea @admitsWrongIfProven @tripu
So, Sánchez was not completely honest. No politician is, so what? The important thing is, that the Vox fascists are kept out of the government.
The "it's illegal" and "it's against the constitution" argument is a very weak one. Constitutions and laws change over time. Above the national law, there is international law, which grants the right of self determination. I don't get why it should be ethical wrong if Catalunya wants to choose its own faith
@Haydar
So the ends justify the means? Vox is a legitimate party with 3 million votes, using corruption to stop them is against all democratic and liberal values, and only emboldens them. Sánchez is also deceiving his own voters.
Surely laws and Constitutions can change. But before those changes, only the Judicial system can make decisions. Otherwise there's no separation of powers, which is a basic element of a democracy.
@ImperfectIdea @admitsWrongIfProven @tripu
Vox is a fascist party and must be fought at all costs. The Nazi party NSDAP in Germany had 11 million votes, but that did not made them democratic or in any way ethical legitimate.
Fascists are ruthless murderers. History shows that fascists can't stopped by democratic means only.
However, I don't see that Sánchez did anything anti-democratic. He changed his mind after the election, like so many others did before him. Not nice, but legitimate.
@Haydar
Sánchez could have campaigned to ban fascist parties... or he could have banned them by decree. I mean, that's not the legal way, but who cares, right? What are the limits when fighting against opposing groups? Surely this won't set a precedent and won't ever be used against you.
Anyway, Godwin's Law means it's time for me to check out. Thank for the chat.
@ImperfectIdea @admitsWrongIfProven @tripu there is a difference between a "opposing group" which has a different political opinion and a group who want to eliminate everyone who doesn't belong to their people, from their point of view.
That is not Godwin. Godwin is, if one says "you are for/against that specific thing, you're a Nazi".
Talking about actual Nazis and fascists and how to stop them is something completely different.
@tripu @ImperfectIdea @admitsWrongIfProven
Also many lawyers say, the amnesty would be legal. So, why not let the Court decide?
It is not only a legal question, but also a political. Spain clearly has a problem with its different ethnic groups, otherwise this conflict wouldn't have been lasted so long. The amnesty brings the chance to solve this conflict. You can only solve conflicts if you treat your partners as equals.
@tripu @Haydar @ImperfectIdea > Pardoning criminals and supporting secession is, by definition, more divisive than applying the law and defending the unity of the country.
Confused. You say the country is divided. Yet allowing the people with different ideas to leave is bad.
Do you perchance want the non-agressive people to stay because you fear what the others would do if they were all there is left?
Well, just a silly idea. I'll see myself out...