@KellyS @freemo @ThatDude There is no way to design a society or legal system that isn't oppressive to *someone*. Libertarians have bought into the lie that you can, but you can't. To the extent that libertarianism succeeds, it is simply just hollowing out what keeps a society together and creating a power vacuum for a new, more dominant belief/value system.
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I disagree, libertarianism isnt about a perfect society where everyone gets to do whatever the hell they want. It is about reaching the maximum level of personal freedom possible.
@KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
@freemo @KellyS @ThatDude whatever the hell they want, huh? Like put on drag queen shows for children? Like putting pre-teens on testosterone, sterilizing them, and surgically disfiguring their genitalia? That is very liberating to some people, and they're letting us all know that on a daily basis. Is that the level of personal freedom that will elevate society?
I am ok with a pre-teen having liberty and freedom over their own body, though its a complicated issue and they should be advised about it.. so yea that part sounds ok. Reassignment surgery on the genitals though isnt until their older since there isnt the same need as with hormones to start that early (hormones are less likely to work if started after puberty).
So yes I'd say complete say over what you do and put into your own body is very liberating, and yes I support that, and I would support it at any age so long as the person is informed and aware of their choices.
@KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
@freemo @fucksiliconvalley @KellyS @ThatDude
Interesting moral position, does it carry through with informed and educated pre-teen suicide?
It would, yes. A person should absolutely have the right to commit suicide so long as they are informed of their options and are sane enough to know their choices. This would apply at any age.
@fucksiliconvalley @KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
The big difference to consider here though is with hormone therapy it tends to only work effectively pre-puberty. So delaying till they are an adult is the same as denying them the choice.
On the other hand suicide, if delayed, might prolong suffering, but it is a decision that can always be made later.
So there is more argument for the case of delaying suicide and trying other alternatives or seeing if someone changes their mind far more so than there is with hormone therapy. That said, in the end, I do feel it should be the individuals rights, particularly if they have tried other options and are sane when making the decision.
@fucksiliconvalley @KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
@freemo @fucksiliconvalley @KellyS @ThatDude
A perfectly consistent position, but I find the traditional practice of limited autonomy until the age of majority has a certain proven utilitarian societal benefit given that most people aren’t that intelligent and it takes years to learn enough wisdom to make rational decisions when you’re on the left hand of the bell curve.
I'm not sure children are as inept as adults tend to think of them as... Honestly the vast majority of 12 year olds I know, when treated as an adult, is more than capable of reasoning at an adult level. Only time that can be hard to see is when you have over bearing adults who dont treat their kids like adults or give them autonomy in the first place.
@fucksiliconvalley @KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
@freemo @mcduquesne @KellyS @ThatDude We're not talking about the majority of 12 year olds. We're talking about a psychologically vulnerable 10-15%. They're vulnerable at that age and some of them succumb to trans propaganda that claim they will get a new "glitter family" and that transitioning will solve all of their problems. If you have any interest in the subject matter at all (and I realize I just dumped this on you, and you may not) I would encourage you to pick up Irreversible Damage.
Already familiar with the book, thanks for recommending it. I prefer to discuss arguments made here rather than by someone who isnt here.
Being vulnerable or "duped" by some propaganda as you state it is your opinion, for many that isnt true from their perspective (and even as they become adults they will in many cases continue to disagree with your assesment). Regardless, that does not change their right to bodily autonomy or to have the right to judge for themselves what is propaganda and what is real. Certainly you have the opposite biases and are feeding into propaganda of an opposite nature, so you are no more above propaganda and bias than them, the difference is that it isnt your body, its theirs.
@mcduquesne @KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
Thats about the reaction I'd expect from someone operating under dogma and propaganda... so sure, sounds good. See ya.
@mcduquesne @KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
@freemo @mcduquesne @KellyS @ThatDude so are you and you'll know that some day. Best of luck.
Except that my Pov, however bias it may be, is not one that comes from a bias against or for trans people. It is rooted in the "dogma" that every person has absolute sacred right to do what they want with their own body. Yes it may be dogmatic as it is axiomatic and not something I need or care to prove, but i am perfectly ok with that as I have yet to hear a better principle.
@mcduquesne @KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
@freemo @mcduquesne @KellyS @ThatDude There must be some limitation when it comes to children, right? No one believes 2 year old's can make their own decisions. 3? 4? You get my point. The law says you aren't a legal adult until you're 18. I don't see why what I am arguing violates the principals of libertarian thought. You still believe in some legal standard for the definition of a child vs an adult, right?
I would say the natural limitation to children is when they are too young to express and describe their decisions.. a 2 year old can not do this, a 12 year old can (usually).
So my legal standard is **not** based on age, but rather ones ability to verbalize and explain their decisions (even if you dont agree with them).
@mcduquesne @KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
@freemo @mcduquesne @KellyS @ThatDude well, it isn't productive to carry on. You're wrong and you'll probably realize it in 10 years.