@KellyS @freemo @ThatDude There is no way to design a society or legal system that isn't oppressive to *someone*. Libertarians have bought into the lie that you can, but you can't. To the extent that libertarianism succeeds, it is simply just hollowing out what keeps a society together and creating a power vacuum for a new, more dominant belief/value system.
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I disagree, libertarianism isnt about a perfect society where everyone gets to do whatever the hell they want. It is about reaching the maximum level of personal freedom possible.
@KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
@freemo @KellyS @ThatDude whatever the hell they want, huh? Like put on drag queen shows for children? Like putting pre-teens on testosterone, sterilizing them, and surgically disfiguring their genitalia? That is very liberating to some people, and they're letting us all know that on a daily basis. Is that the level of personal freedom that will elevate society?
I am ok with a pre-teen having liberty and freedom over their own body, though its a complicated issue and they should be advised about it.. so yea that part sounds ok. Reassignment surgery on the genitals though isnt until their older since there isnt the same need as with hormones to start that early (hormones are less likely to work if started after puberty).
So yes I'd say complete say over what you do and put into your own body is very liberating, and yes I support that, and I would support it at any age so long as the person is informed and aware of their choices.
@KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
It would, yes. A person should absolutely have the right to commit suicide so long as they are informed of their options and are sane enough to know their choices. This would apply at any age.
@fucksiliconvalley @KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
The big difference to consider here though is with hormone therapy it tends to only work effectively pre-puberty. So delaying till they are an adult is the same as denying them the choice.
On the other hand suicide, if delayed, might prolong suffering, but it is a decision that can always be made later.
So there is more argument for the case of delaying suicide and trying other alternatives or seeing if someone changes their mind far more so than there is with hormone therapy. That said, in the end, I do feel it should be the individuals rights, particularly if they have tried other options and are sane when making the decision.
@fucksiliconvalley @KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
@freemo @fucksiliconvalley @KellyS @ThatDude
A perfectly consistent position, but I find the traditional practice of limited autonomy until the age of majority has a certain proven utilitarian societal benefit given that most people aren’t that intelligent and it takes years to learn enough wisdom to make rational decisions when you’re on the left hand of the bell curve.
I'm not sure children are as inept as adults tend to think of them as... Honestly the vast majority of 12 year olds I know, when treated as an adult, is more than capable of reasoning at an adult level. Only time that can be hard to see is when you have over bearing adults who dont treat their kids like adults or give them autonomy in the first place.
@fucksiliconvalley @KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
@freemo @mcduquesne @KellyS @ThatDude We're not talking about the majority of 12 year olds. We're talking about a psychologically vulnerable 10-15%. They're vulnerable at that age and some of them succumb to trans propaganda that claim they will get a new "glitter family" and that transitioning will solve all of their problems. If you have any interest in the subject matter at all (and I realize I just dumped this on you, and you may not) I would encourage you to pick up Irreversible Damage.
Already familiar with the book, thanks for recommending it. I prefer to discuss arguments made here rather than by someone who isnt here.
Being vulnerable or "duped" by some propaganda as you state it is your opinion, for many that isnt true from their perspective (and even as they become adults they will in many cases continue to disagree with your assesment). Regardless, that does not change their right to bodily autonomy or to have the right to judge for themselves what is propaganda and what is real. Certainly you have the opposite biases and are feeding into propaganda of an opposite nature, so you are no more above propaganda and bias than them, the difference is that it isnt your body, its theirs.
@mcduquesne @KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
@freemo @mcduquesne @KellyS @ThatDude well, it isn't productive to carry on. You're wrong and you'll probably realize it in 10 years.
Thats about the reaction I'd expect from someone operating under dogma and propaganda... so sure, sounds good. See ya.
@mcduquesne @KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
@freemo @mcduquesne @KellyS @ThatDude so are you and you'll know that some day. Best of luck.
Except that my Pov, however bias it may be, is not one that comes from a bias against or for trans people. It is rooted in the "dogma" that every person has absolute sacred right to do what they want with their own body. Yes it may be dogmatic as it is axiomatic and not something I need or care to prove, but i am perfectly ok with that as I have yet to hear a better principle.
@mcduquesne @KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
@freemo @mcduquesne @KellyS @ThatDude There must be some limitation when it comes to children, right? No one believes 2 year old's can make their own decisions. 3? 4? You get my point. The law says you aren't a legal adult until you're 18. I don't see why what I am arguing violates the principals of libertarian thought. You still believe in some legal standard for the definition of a child vs an adult, right?
I would say the natural limitation to children is when they are too young to express and describe their decisions.. a 2 year old can not do this, a 12 year old can (usually).
So my legal standard is **not** based on age, but rather ones ability to verbalize and explain their decisions (even if you dont agree with them).
@mcduquesne @KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
@freemo @KellyS @ThatDude My goodness...they're children. They're brains aren't fully formed. There is tremendous evidence of social contagion driving a large amount of teens identifying as "trans". Children are not in a position to make life altering decisions about halting their maturation or gender reassignment. I beg of you to read Abigail Shrier's book and reconsider.
Most adults I talk to dont have fully formed brains either, I wouldnt stop them from making choices about their own bodies either.
The problem is they have to make a life altering decision either way. Not taking hormone therapy can be just as devastating to their future and life as taking it. So either way a decision needs to be made, and either one, if incorrect, can destroy their lives. So they, along with their parent, will have to make that decision, and forcing either one on them is not going to help things.
@KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
@freemo @KellyS @ThatDude the data say otherwise about hormone therapy but the larger point I am making is that we're not just talking about freedom for a teen. We're also talking about a regime that is firing any doctor who doesn't practice positive affirmation. We're also talking about squashing parents rights. We're also talking about compelled speech for pronouns. While some seek a type of freedom they necessarily oppress others to gain it.
@freemo @KellyS @ThatDude many biological women want spaces where only they are allowed to enter. This is an oppression to those who also want to enter them, but liberating to biological women. Libertarian's present their movement as progressing only freedom and I reject that as naive and simplistic.
It was never about people getting whatever they want and anyone who doesnt is "oppressed" and all that... It is about, as i said at the get go, maximizing personal freedoms.
That means instead of making bathrooms just for birth-females and birth-males, or making bathrooms inclusive to trans as the only two options, you solve the problem quite simply by building bathrooms such that each stall is its own bathroom, with no way to peek in.. problem solved. No one is going to complain because of the sex of the person washing their hands next to them in the communal location.
@KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
No the data does not claim that **everyone** who gets hormone therapy pre-teen is worse off. At best we can show that its hit or miss, it can do harm, it can do good and there are cases of each. Thats what making your own decisions means, knowing the risks and being able to weigh them and ultimately take those risks.
Some of those things im ok with.. I dont think a parent should have a right over a child's body more so than the child themself. Bodily autonomy is sacred and as long as the child is old enough to discuss and understand the situation, and shows the proper mental maturity then no parent should have any right to overrule a child's decision about their own bodies. I know my opinion is unpopular, but I do feel strongly about it.
As for a doctors autonomy, thats a bit different. A doctor has a right to refuse anyone treatment they want for any reason, a patient has a right to find a doctor that offers said treatment. Me personally I would abolish all doctors and make all medications over the counter and eliminate the whole problem.
Compelled speech for pronouns is also something I wouldnt support. You can call someone whatever the hell you want, you have freedom of speech. But if you are intentionally not using a persons he/she choice of pronouns then you are complete scum and should be shunned by society, but it should still be your right. You have the right to be a horrible human being if you wish.
@KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
Using exotic words like Xhe as a pronoun, id agree. But that is a very small percentage of people. Most demand he or she. Even the ones who prefer they usually wont insist on it as long as you use he or she according to their gender (how they present).
@KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude @fucksiliconvalley
@freemo @KellyS @ThatDude what you did there is called "knocking down the straw man". I didn't say that the data claim that **everyone** who gets hormone therapy is worse off. What I am alleging is that the data do show that there is a large number of people that attempt to transition who commit suicide and a significant number who de-transition. CBS 60-minutes surprisingly just did an episode on this, and our favorite podcast covered it briefly a couple of weeks ago.
@freemo @KellyS @ThatDude so, at this point, psychologists are being threatened with loss of license and job if they do not positively affirm. They are no longer allowed to offer other treatment options. Libertarian thinking is not ruling the day in the field of psychology, it would seem. The left is running the table and we will all be forced to comply.
Ok so the only valid point you've made as far as I can tell is that if psychiatrists are being threatened then that should stop... ok, next.
@KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
I never had any intention or expectation to change your mind. I explained my point of view, nothing more.
@KellyS@noagendasocial.com @ThatDude
@freemo @fucksiliconvalley @KellyS @ThatDude
Interesting moral position, does it carry through with informed and educated pre-teen suicide?