A quick history lesson. From 1940-1980:
•Wealthiest paid 70-94% marginal tax
•0 of them went broke from taxation
•0 of them left USA
•All remained exceedingly wealthy
•Manufacturing boomed
•The middle class was 62% of US economy (It's now 40% post 'trickle down scamenomics)
•We had the strongest middle class growth in US History

Let's do that again. Stop protecting billionaires. Start taxing them.
#TaxBillionaires

@QasimRashid I mean, It was abusive and unfair, which is enough reason for me to give it a hard no... **no one** should be taked out of 94% of their income, regardless if they can survive it.

That said, I can pretty much garuntee the whole "0 of them left" and "0 of them went broke" is pure nonsense, you have a source for that?

@freemo that’s not how progressive tax systems (including the now-watered-down one in the US) works. No one paid 94% of their entire income in tax, pre-Reagan - that would have been a flat tax system (which the US has never had to my knowledge), and as you so rightly point out is grotesquely unfair (especially to lower income workers) @QasimRashid

@pmonks

Yes I am well aware how income tax works. But yes as you get father above the 200K bracket the closeryoull get to 94%. So yes you have tax rates abusively high for the rich that can approach 94%, if your rich enough you are effecitvely paying 94%.

@QasimRashid

@freemo again, that’s not how progressive tax systems work. Khan Academy has a good explainer that might help explain where you’re going wrong: https://www.khanacademy.org/economics-finance-domain/core-finance/taxes-topic/taxes/v/tax-brackets-and-progressive-taxation @QasimRashid

@pmonks @QasimRashid

Please feel free to explain specifically where you think i went wrong. I deal with these sorts of taxes daily as the EVP of a company.

@freemo @pmonks @QasimRashid
Now Dr. Explain to us how tax credits and tax write offs work to lessen the tax burden for the wealthy. Not to even mention the tax deferrals offered in 401ks and IRAs. So the real question is not what is the tax bracket you're in but what is the effective tax rate you actually pay. That's why Buffet says his secretary pays more in tax than he does.

@MikeBon @pmonks @QasimRashid

Yes they legally use the writeoffs and other benefits availible to everyone. If there is a specific writeoff you feel is unjust or only applies to the wealthh im open to discuss

@freemo most of these write offs are only obtainable if you’re wealthy though, so no they’re not “available to everyone” in any meaningful way @MikeBon

@freemo for example one can’t claim charitable donation deductions if one is living paycheck-to-paycheck and deciding whether to pay rent or utilities this month - there’s no disposable income available to be making such donations @MikeBon

@pmonks @MikeBon

That is a bit irrelevant since they are spending far more on charities then they save on a deduction.

@freemo not at all. If a wealthy person doesn’t pursue legal loopholes to the tax code (such as charitable dedications), then they would have paid more in taxes. The “charitable” donation has very little to do with philanthropy and everything to do with retaining more personal wealth. @MikeBon

@pmonks @MikeBon

How isnpaying 100k in donations to save 20k in taxes a loophole or even an exploit?

@freemo charitable donations (at least in the US) work by reducing income, which means it can shift someone into a lower tax bracket. That can save substantially more than the amount of the donation. @MikeBon

@freemo regardless, you’re dodging the original point: that these kinds of deductions are not equally available to everyone @MikeBon

@pmonks

No one has presented an example where thry are exclusively or favorable towards the super rich. Everyone has access to them.. if you think there is one only the rich can use im still waiting to hear what one you mean

@MikeBon

@freemo I did, here: https://sfba.social/@pmonks/110282526345680037 You changed the subject in your subsequent reply. @MikeBon

@pmonks @MikeBon

No this example was invslidated because the super rich, as we are discussing dont hover tax brackets by definition. And it isnt saving you money overall except in that edge case.

@freemo reread what I wrote in that particular post @MikeBon

@pmonks @MikeBon

Dont be a passive aggressive ass. If you feel i misinterprited the discussion feel free to speak up. Otherwise lets not go there

@freemo you didn’t read the post I linked, assumed it was a different one, and then addressed the wrong point in. If you wish to police how this discussion is conducted then I encourage you to engage with it in good faith and actually read waa is written than jumping to (wrong) conclusions. @MikeBon

@pmonks @MikeBon

Read it a fourth time now.. nope it says exactly what i thought it said...

@freemo perhaps your client isn’t functioning correctly, so I’ll literally reproduce the text again here:

“for example one can’t claim charitable donation deductions if one is living paycheck-to-paycheck and deciding whether to pay rent or utilities this month - there’s no disposable income available to be making such donations”

This comment isn’t about the wealthy, it’s about the poor. You still haven’t address that point (which was also one of the first one raised in this thread i.e. that these kinds of legal tax loopholes are _not_ available to all).

@MikeBon

@pmonks @MikeBon

So it says exactly what i thought it says.. as isaid before its not a tax advantage for the rich or anyone since you spend more in giving donations than you get in tax cuts. So neither the rich the poor nor anyone can exploit it to save on taxes, it isnt a net savings.

@freemo you’re still missing the point: how can someone living paycheck-to-paycheck make a charitable donation in order to access this tax deduction, without neglecting their other financial obligations? @MikeBon

@pmonks @MikeBon

They cant, nor can the rich because it isnt a tax advantage.. spending 100k on charity to save 10k on taxes isnt an advantage to the rich either nor is it a means to save money.

@freemo so you’re retracting your earlier assertions, made here: https://qoto.org/@freemo/110282585223431110 and here: https://qoto.org/@freemo/110282585223431110 where you claim that everyone has access to these kinds of tax loopholes? @MikeBon

@pmonks @MikeBon

Nope.. both those statements still hold true. I was asking for an example where the rich could leverage loopholes to get out of taxes the poor cant. Since you dont save money by making charitable donations this does not satisfy the premise.

@freemo how does someone living paycheck-to-paycheck afford to make a charitable donation while still meeting their other financial obligations? @MikeBon

@pmonks @MikeBon

They dont, and you really arent listening.. how does a rich person use the loophole to save money? If they make 200 million and spend 10 million on charity in orser to save 1 million in taxes all they did was cost themselves 9 million. So it is not a loophole for the rich or the poor, it isnt a loophole for anyone...

@freemo we’ll get to your unrelated claim about the wealthy not benefiting from tax deductions soon. I’m still more interested in your earlier claim that the poor have equal access to these deductions. Am I right in thinking that in your latest reply you are indeed retracting that claim? @MikeBon

@pmonks @MikeBon

I didnt say thry dont benefit from tax deductions.. if you cant e en listen to the basic things people say enough to repeat what they said accurately how do you expect people to keep interacting with you?

I am not retracting the claim. The poor have equal access to charitable deductions. They engage in fewer of thrm so would use them less, but since its not a loophole or something a person can exploit to save money it isnt relevant to my claim.

@freemo I didn’t say you did. What you *did* say (here: https://qoto.org/@freemo/110282511567890244 and here: https://qoto.org/@freemo/110282585223431110), and which I’m disputing, is that everyone has *ACCESS* to these deductions.

Do you still stand behind that claim?

@MikeBon

@pmonks @MikeBon

Yes everyone has ACCESS to the charitable giving deductions. And anyone who donates to charity is likely to leverage it, and should. But it isnt a money saver and since those two messages were in thr context of loopholes it is irrelevant either way.