🎓 Dr. Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@social.cleverlibre.org

@voidabyss Please be aware that posting a bunch of studies that show COVID's safety and claiming its safety is questionable is approaching anti-vax nonsense. It would fall under bad faith arguments.

@voidabyss of course clinical trials are on going. They always will be, thats how science works, we always keep looking. But that is no way even remotely an indication that there is any concern. Spewing studies that all confirm the safety if the vaccines is intended to prove what exactly?

@quinn The people with the best healthcare in history 100 years ago were pretty eager to let people "destroy" those systems to make way for the best healthcare in history that we have in the modern age, and they were just as eager 200 years before that... In 100 years I have no doubt looking back on today it will look just as barbaric. You dont own some singular moment in history were we finally solved an on going problem that has continually improved for thousands of years.

@quinn It may be a nebulous term but it is not "undefined" nor "random" in the healthcare space.. and if you wanted to know the **specific** structure of a co-op in this context then instead of arguing with me for days about something that was undefined in your head in the first place maybe you should have considered asking for clarity? Again, because your not arguing in good-faith.

@quinn Ok, thanks for sharing that irrelevant fact.

@quinn No Z is neither random nor undefined.. the idea of what a co-op is in healthcare is well defined and already exists, nothing random about it...

I think what you meant to say is "I (quinn) am ignorant about this model and rather than admitting I dont know enough to argure it I've been arguing it for hours and am just now admitting that in my mind it is some random undefined thing because I never researched it before"

Again, bad-faith argument and you for some bizare reason keep insisting on not arguing in good-faith.

@quinn Its also not "undefined"... what co-op means here is fairly well defined and as I said, in use on small scales.

@quinn Depends what you mean by that.. yes, there are minority examples of co-op healthcare. No it has never been enforced by law at any scale. But yes it does exist on a scale where a few million people worldwide (scattered) use it.

@quinn You are sounding like a broken record here... for the 10th time now maybe.. being better than things that in no way resemble what im proposing, no matter how many of those things there are is completely irrelevant to the argument at hand. Yet you keep **insisting** I argue about what is better... X or Y and think that is somehow relevant to the fact that I am saying I think Z is better. You keep replacing X with everything in all of history, and yet, it still never resembles Z, so your argument is just a waste of both our time.

@quinn Other than stating the fact that they failed, none of the rest of your statement is what I said.. Do you know what fallacy it is called when you do what you just did? Seriously look at **how** you are arguing now, can you not see you devolved from being respectful to a bad-faith argument?

@quinn There are examples of it in all countries that dont have single-payer, however no country has actually enforced it as a rule across the whole country. So generally they exist as a small minority of the overall ecosystem at the moment.

@quinn Again another non-sequitor.. which of the two systems is the best, and the fact that 100 or 1000 years ago systems were worse has abosolutely no relevance to the argument.

Generation after generation we look at our healthcare as the best compared to what came before, human progress is improvement... if anything the fact that healthcare now is vastly improved overall than healthcare in our past is a strong indication there are significant improvements to healthcare that have yet to be discovered. No doubt in a few generations those that look back on both american and european healthcare will see it as barbaric to the systems they use in the future, much as we feel when we look a few generations back.

@threalist

Thats all true, and I dont disagree with this statement. I just feel the poor having good access to healthcare (not just emergency care) is **vital** to helping them get out of poverty and thus shouldnt be overlooked.

@quinn

@quinn I grew up in abject poverty living in a home where we couldnt feed ourselves most days and an uncle in the next room with a heroin problem.. in america.

Neither of us have any love for the american system,, As I said three times now I dont **care** which of the two is worse, at no point was that the focus of the discussion and ifyour going to argue one sucks more than the other, sure, thats not any conversation im engaging in so stop repeating it to me.

Either argue my point, which is that co-op based healthcare would be a better solution than either hte american or the european healthcare systems, or simply walk away... insisting I argue you about a point I couldnt care less about is just childish and as I said if your earlier part of the conversation is any indiciation you are better than that.

@threalist

that might work, but im not sure its as good as providing full insurance to the poor.

@quinn

@quinn

If the point of the discussion is "which of the two system that is responsible for killing people is less responsible/liable than the other" then sure... but that is **not** the point of the argument nor at any point anything I talked about... It is yet another fallacy, this time the non sequitor fallacy.

@quinn They are not equivelant, they do share some properties (the fact that they are failures and cause people more harm than an ideal solution would, by a big margin)... they also dont share many properties (such as how and why they fail, one being financial, the other being wait times, and lack of access to certain specialty treatments and medications)..

So are they overall equal, absolutely not.. are they both failures, absolutely.

@quinn

Jesus christ dude you went from having a respectful argument to nothing but fallacies and hyperbole... check yourself, you are better than that if the first part of your conversations is any indiciation.

You are style of discourse sounds like im arguing with a trumper now, come on now.. either walk away or discuss in good faith, your better than this.

@quinn Why do you keep arguing the fact that America has worse outcomes like it has even the remotest relevance to what I am saying... I am **not** proposing an american system nor am I proposing a european system... Both are failed systems, bothhave significantly sub-optimal outcomes. The fact that america has worse outcomes than europe is in no way a counter argument to anything I said.

@quinn As I stated BOTH systems torture and kill people.. america tortures and kills the poor, socialized medicine tortures and kills people equally... if your ok with that lets never speak again...

Luckily I'm proposing a system that solves the problems that both types of healthcare have.